Westminstenders: Silly Season

[RedToothBrush]

It's that time of year again when politicians seem to completely lose their marbles in order to impress the faithful. And it is beginning to feel like conference season is increasingly an exercise in religious ferver to the party rather than considering what's in the best interests of the whole country.

Labour have got off to a good start before their conference opens, by almost starting complete melt down.

The Tories have promised to break from convention and try and over shadow the others, so that's something to look forward to.

And early this week we have the supreme Court ruling which could, regardless of which direction it swings, have massive ramifications for our democracy.

Big week ahead.

I would add that the Catholic Schools in this area do not just exclude the deprived and BME pupils. Many also manage to exclude those from former Communist countries like Poland by requiring the applicant to have been baptised by six months, which is not the custom there.

I knew I didn't want to get involved in a debate about bloody private schools at tea time.
Since you've taken me to the extreme scenario, BearBehind, I could equally go to the other, and say that the solution is not to create a class system where no one is entitled to a decent living unless born to the correct parents or having an advantageous family connection. Marx and Dickens provided ample commentary on that kind of system right here in the UK, and there is no way many of us will support a return to it.

My understanding is that Finland does not have private schools. There may be loopholes, such as language or private tuition, but everyone gets a common level of education through publicly funded schools. It may also be that private schools in other countries are more tightly bound to avoid rich/ poor segregation or offer more subsidised places, which I think is the case for Germany (which bans home education). Apparently similar institutions are not the same in different cultural contexts and would require intimate knowledge of every country in Europe to discuss in detail, which I don't have.

Don't get me started on fucking catholic schools.

I am the product of one.

Catholic schools in this area are the opposite of that in terms of entry

Around 3% of students in Finland attend private schools (faith based and Steiner)
not that different from the 7% in the UK

Oh goodness. No, I would never use "Little Englander" to describe someone who's only ever lived in one place. Thanks for bearing with me until we understood each other, DarkAtEndOfUk!

In fact, I suspect many of the people who make it into my "Little Englander" definition are actually privileged enough to travel abroad. But their minds remain unbroadened by it, or by what they see on their high-definition telly from their own sofas. Theresa May seems to me the Head Girl of the Little Englanders.

But I digress.

Every country either has private schools
or its rich families being educated abroad.
assuming otherwise is self delusion

Seamus Milne went to Winchester while his daddy ran the BBC after all

As you can tell, the "We'll stand alone again" crap really does annoy me quite a lot.

Please don't feel you need to apologise for that, it drives me up the wall as well. One of the most irritating side effects of Brexit for many Commonwealth citizens in the UK has been finding out that our efforts in the wars have been blithely forgotten by many Britons in favour of the "we stood alone" narrative. I don't think they realise just how deeply offensive they're being.

Mind you, I do find some amusement over how excited they get over the prospect of FOM with the Commonwealth, given how little they seem to actually know about it.

There is also the issue that state schools can vary hugely and a place in the catchment if a good state school is multiples of the cost of even private school fees. I know the house can be sold again afterwards, and will hopefully keep its value if the school stays good, but that certainly isn't mixing socially to any significant degree if you either have to have social housing or a house costing upwards of £800k to go to that school.

The policy also doesn't deal with private special schools for children who are not able to access mainstream but local authorities won't pay for them.

Finally vat on school fees - fine, but at the moment the vat exemption is for educational purposes so includes universities. Vat and building rates on university fees would be significantly less popular,

I'd be interested in any research that exists where similar policies have been put into place, if such a thing exists.

My initial reaction is not positive but...I don't know if that's because it's just so against the status quo that I need time to reflect on it.

I do think that private schooling causes great inequalities passed from generation to generation and that it leads to working class people being shut out of opportunities.

I don't like the reverse quotas. And the part about appropriating private property. Though I see this would be required to make the whole thing work economically.

All that being said I wonder whether it would remove as much inequality as people think...as private schools are usually in locations where there is a degree of affluence anyway. There's little difference between state and private schools where I am now because it's a well off area for example.

I could equally go to the other, and say that the solution is not to create a class system where no one is entitled to a decent living unless born to the correct parents or having an advantageous family connection

But that isn’t the situation we are in.

People are entitled to a decent living. Plenty of people from less affluent backgrounds do far better than some of their more ‘privileged’ peers.

OK, there are people who earn more than others but do you honestly believe extremely skilled labour should earn the same are completely unskilled?

Look where private schools...in particular Eton and Harrow...have got us!?

Look where private schools...in particular Eton and Harrow...have got us!?

Yes - because it’s that simple 🤔

I have no issues whatsoever with removing their charitable status and making them pay full business rates. But this seems a step too far.

My viewpoint too. I would keep charitable status for schools which serve children with Special needs and were solely for that purpose. But Eton, Radley charities - you have got to be joking! Level the playing field so that they pay the same business rates as state schools and strip the charitable status away. If they feel a desperate need to offer a free place to a deserving boy or two, I am quite sure that their funds are sufficient to support them.

Social mixing requires bussing.

In my town, no it doesn't. The bussing in is of children coming from 30 miles away to the private schools (Indies in MN speak.) The only bussing of local children is of village children, or children having to cross town because the neighbouring ones are full, and the LA isn't allowed to build others.

Yeah I think it is.
Born into huge privilege.
Educated for your most formative years to believe you are better and more important than people poorer than you or who don't look like you, or who didn't go to the same school as you.
Bullingdon club boys treating the HofC as just another jolly wheeze.

Yes there is a problem with Eton educated politicians, but that's a problem with politicians not just Eton.

I'm reading Isabel Hartman's book - why we get the politicians we deserve - it is fascinating. If we want more diverse MPs then we need more people to apply, local constituency party selection panels which aren't made up of 80 year old white people; party funding and support for prospective politicians; and an intrusive and supine press.

I'm sure there's more, but it does look like you need to have the hide of an elephant to become a politician which is not helpful for developing empathy or compassion and encourages the sort of false self confidence that Eton tends to teach ( other private schools less so).

Can’t believe Labour! My DD is not going to a state school until they are funded properly and this country gets rid of its stupid anti-intellectual attitude. I was bullied horribly at my local comprehensive for being a ‘nerd’ and I don’t want that for her. Not everyone uses private education because they think they’re better than everyone else

PMK ta!

Mind you, I do find some amusement over how excited they get over the prospect of FOM with the Commonwealth, given how little they seem to actually know about it.

I am hiding behind my hands cringing for the moment we rock up at the Commonwealth's door saying, "Hi Honey, I'm home! Once I'd moved in, the OW nagged me to wash dishes and pick my own dirty keks up, just as you did. So I decided I liked you more after all. Aren't you pleased?!"

I'm dying with shame just at the thought of it. We will be told where to go. And we will deserve it.

Plenty of people from less affluent backgrounds do far better than some of their more ‘privileged’ peers. Not generally true though is it? But that isn’t the situation we are in.

The trend is moving back in that direction. You'd have to define what constitutes 'decent living', which to me includes the capacity to acquire assets and not live hand-to-mouth. Basically house ownership, although others are possible: not abandoning working people to rent in the private sector for the entirety of their lives. But that's another huge argument. Nor does it involve having some people living in food poverty in one of the richest countries in the world. No I do not propose that a universal wage irrespective of job is the solution: nor do I propose that that is the only other solution. Extremes of private ownership by the few are just as bad as extremes of state ownership.

queen I'm fairly sure your dd does not attend Eton!

One avenue which used to to be a good training ground for MPs was Trade Union work. Successive Tory Governments have hobbled them, and Labour didn't do anything to roll back the changes.

We do have some really excellent inclusive comprehensives here, all except one inclusive state secondary is oversubscribed twice over, up to 1500 families chasing 200 places. The outcomes for my DDs peers are not much different whether state or private. Those with the ability are getting into good courses at good universities regardless of where they went to school. Some of the private schools have the best exam results in the country but that is because they are amongst the most selective. The only premium you get is in terms of facilities for sport, drama, music etc. but it is not that a pupil with talents would not get the opportunity at all in the local state schools. Most of the private schools are certainly not training grounds for privilege like the really elite schools, in fact they tend to be down to earth with many of the older ones being established to provide education for the disadvantaged (particularly the girls’ schools) and several are former direct grant grammar schools that went private when Shirley Williams abandoned the direct grant as part of a previous Labour education strategy. They actually bang on about responsibility and fairness and put a lot of effort into not being socially exclusive. The big difference is in meeting special educational needs regardless of ability. The state school have good support facilities but they simply can’t extend them to pupils who still manage to achieve above the average. It really is not the simplistic issue of privilege versus state education

Hoooo - me too - convent school - only began to come to terms with the damage a Catholic education did to me in my thirties.

I watched a fascinating programme years ago (panorama?) about "boarding school survivors"...
How can anyone packed off to boarding school at 6 or 7 have a normal childhood/upbringing?
These schools rear people incapable of empathy imvho.
How could they not?
They are shown none in their most formative years and soon learn to "toughen up".
As much as I loathe bojo, farage, cameron, jrm et al, lets not pretend they are not very, very damaged people.
If any of you get the chance, read churchill's letters to his mother begging to come home from school. Pathetically sad.
Farage and trump have daddy issues.
It's all so fucking predictable.