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Brexit

Westminstenders: Silly Season

988 replies

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 07:03

It's that time of year again when politicians seem to completely lose their marbles in order to impress the faithful. And it is beginning to feel like conference season is increasingly an exercise in religious ferver to the party rather than considering what's in the best interests of the whole country.

Labour have got off to a good start before their conference opens, by almost starting complete melt down.

The Tories have promised to break from convention and try and over shadow the others, so that's something to look forward to.

And early this week we have the supreme Court ruling which could, regardless of which direction it swings, have massive ramifications for our democracy.

Big week ahead.

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RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 22:20

I guess the repatriation will be a training exercise for no deal chaos and how to deal with people stranded abroad.

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 22:24

red Don't forget that outside the professional mc, a significant section of people born in earlier decades were never able to buy either

Even for those with qualifications and job, there can be a delay getting on the property ladder if you have to save the deposit with no help from family

I also notice the divide even among my contempories, born 1950s, between those who received inheritances - to pay off the mortgage / buy a 2nd property - and those of us who had to do it all ourselves.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 22:27

Labour to announce it would reverse austerity cuts to adult social care

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/22/labour-announce-reverse-austerity-cuts-adult-social-care

Party expected to offer free help with washing, dressing and meals for people over 65

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 22:37

Don't forget that outside the professional mc, a significant section of people born in earlier decades were never able to buy either

Once upon a time many of them would have been eligible for council housing...

... And yeah I don't think I need to expand on the lack of housing building in that area.

There is actually a reasonably high percentage of council housing in my area. A lot of what remains is now no longer council housing but housing association. A lot has been sold off (and is the small 3 bed housing that the middle class professionals are moving into ironically).

I think in the last 15 years there's been about a dozen new housing association properties built in the area. Out of at least 1000 houses.

Council tenants are being driven out if the area slowly but surely.

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HesterThrale · 22/09/2019 22:39

Red
The older generation have absolutely no idea about the structural issues and think it's people not saving hard enough or working hard enough.

Actually I think a huge number of middle-aged /older people are acutely aware of the housing affordability problem. If they have kids in their 20s/30s who they know are working hard and earning good average wages but are still nowhere near being able to afford to buy even a small flat... it’s heartbreaking.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 22:40

I should add there is a growing tension between the old time locals and 'the new money' moving in as its viewed.

It's Brexit in a nutshell.

Understand the dynamics going on, and you understand a lot of the Remain / Leave tensions and resentments.

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Emilyontmoor · 22/09/2019 22:43

Within the London orbit it is the bigger houses that are not selling, the bigger they are the worse it is. There is still a market for flats and we are seeing those sell to young families as well as those without children who used to buy them. And small family houses are ill selling as well, there is still some money around, some at least from parents, but anything bigger is not selling. The Finance /services sector whose mid level and senior employees fuelled the market is already implementing Brexit strategies, people are being moved elsewhere or are too uncertain of their jobs to risk a big mortgage. Hedge fund managers, speculators and financial buccaneers, the business Boris does give a fuck about don’t buy nice family houses in the suburbs.......

placemats · 22/09/2019 22:44

My mum, who is in her 90s, knows exactly what is going on. Much more so than those in their formative years.

Bloody hell, and there is a need to curse, a lot, this Channel 4 documentary is explosive.

Farage is a shit. Of that there is no doubt.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 22:47

Actually I think a huge number of middle-aged /older people are acutely aware of the housing affordability problem. If they have kids in their 20s/30s who they know are working hard and earning good average wages but are still nowhere near being able to afford to buy even a small flat...

Thats not so true here mainly because many here are able to put their hands in their back pockets for those kids and/or still have a disconnect between not understanding how saying 'we don't want small buildings here' and 'we don't want the green belt destroyed' is part of the problem.

Having sat in a small room with several such people who say they get it, whilst they simultaneously NIMBYs at every suggestion to resolve the problem with no drop of irony, I categorically no longer believe it when people say they 'get it'.

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RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 22:49

Paul Brand@paulbranditv
BREAKING: Compositing complete. Chair has closed the meeting. Two motions to be put to the conference floor. One pro-remain, one neutral.

We think it is potentially possible for Labour to have TWO policies on Brexit 🤯

And this doesn’t include the statement from the NEC, which will also be separately debated at conference tomorrow. Labour source says everyone has left tonight unhappy in some shape or form.

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prettybird · 22/09/2019 22:52

profound consequences for the judiciary if they are seen by the public to side with those trying to cancel the biggest democratic vote in our history

How. Many. Times. Does. It. Have. To. Be. Pointed. Out. That. This. Is. A. Lie. Angry

It was not the biggest Confused. Neither in absolute terms (more people voted in the 1992 GE) nor more relevantly in percentage terms (77.7% of the electorate voted in 1992 - which in itself was only going to levels of 20 years previously - we'd got out the habit of voting Sad)

Emilyontmoor · 22/09/2019 22:54

Party expected to offer free help with washing, dressing and meals for people over 65 More populism, the issue is with how we give dignity and quality of life to the hugely increased number of octogenarians and nonagenarians who develop dementia and are clogging up the NHS. They need to be kept safe from falls, their nappies changing, labour intensive things that don’t occur to voters until their loved ones are the ones who need it.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 22:56

One of umpteen Brexit lies which the Tories keep trotting out

tobee · 22/09/2019 22:56

Surely if Bercow led a gnu it would be incendiary to some people!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 23:02

"More populism" Confused
Ridiculous statement

Just because those with dementia need more help is no need to rubbish something that would greatly help millions of elderly people who do not have dementia

It would be a tremendous help to those people 65+ with physical ailments who are able to stay in their own homes with a bit of help
and who wish to remain independent

Scotland has this free social care and it has reduced the number of elderly who end up in hospital or who have to go prematurely into care against their wishes

Basilpots · 22/09/2019 23:08

Re independent schools converting to state schools. We have a family friend who’s family ran an independent school but ‘sold’ to a fellow independent school but kept the land and buildings which were then rented to the school to continue to use. So the independent school actually has no assets other than the pupils. In this case all I can see happening is the school closing and the LEA having to find school places for another 500 children in an already over subscribed area. In this case I think it will actually cost the Government money.

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 23:10

Example locally

A site suitable for 24 reasonable sized homes was approved planning for 6, £1 million properties. They hadn't wanted the 24 homes because they didn't like the idea of the extra traffic.

These properties have been on the market for best part of 2 years and only 4 have sold.

Meanwhile there is a quota the local authority has to build. Its based on the number of houses built.

Of course bigger houses (which no one can afford and doesn't match demand) = more threat to the beloved green belt.

Since the area is under the minimum number the government is demanding, pretty much any planning application that comes through is now being automatically green lighted with little that locals can do, because if the council don't allow it, central government can sweep in and turn it over anyway and they are terrified of this.

Thus more of the green belt is at threat because they were whinging about the original 24 houses which were absolutely fine and were a reasonable suggestion all things considered.

The logic of these people defies me.

We were bitched at by them and told we only were only trying to get houses built for ourselves personally. We were advocating for our generation not ourselves but they refused to believe it as they knew better.

Now the whole area is at the complete mercy of years of failing to see the bigger picture.

It's not the only example. There are several other similar examples.

In the end I've given up trying to argue the point. Total waste of time.

But yes, they tell me they 'understand how hard it is because of their own children'.

It's like the Brexiteers who think the law is for other people in waiting Johnson to ignore the Benn Act but want a crack down on crime as David Allen Green put it this morning in a tweet about the rule of law.

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boatyardblues · 22/09/2019 23:11

Such a belated PMK on the runaway Westminstenders train... Will this one make past midday tomorrow?

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 23:16

I do feel we are in this mess stuck between increasing hard left and hard right because people have stopped listening.

Brexit. Housing.

Same fucking thing.

It's a generational power struggle as there is a switch from one to the other. With something of a lost generation stuck slap bang in the middle. (There's been comments passed that no one born in the 1970s will ever lead the country because of how the power dynamics and demographics fall).

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Arborea · 22/09/2019 23:16

BCF said However, look at countries which previously had an independent judiciary, but where judges begin to be afraid of the govt and / or of populism

I'm with NoWordforFluffy - thankfully, I don't think Lady Hale or any of the other law lords (notably Lady Black who I've embarassed myself in front of) is scared of the govt or populists - they're made of pretty stern stuff, although I can't imagine any of them are exactly delighted at having to wade into this mess.

WRT Labour and the proposals regarding private schools, I'm another who thinks the issue is too complex for me to feel strongly one way or the other (and I'm NI state educated with children in English state education). What does concern me however is the apparent hypocrisy of Labour front benchers having a pop at private schools while educating their own children in the fee-paid sector. I am a floating voter, so this is not a party political protest. However it strikes an off-note with me, particularly when there's more important things to focus on (Brexit, social care and wage inequality).

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 23:30

I should add, I do think the authoritarian trend atm is born out of a desire for someone to come along and act like a grown up to come along and clear up all this shit and lack of listening to what's needed rather than merely what's wanted.

Naturally enough this instinct is precisely the wrong reaction for the obvious reason that it fails to listen and compromise competing interests even more.

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 23:31

I can't get worked up about private schools, whether staying as they are, or being taken over

wrt politicians' own DC, I wonder how many advocating the change are those who didn't use private schools - and strongly disapprove of colleagues who did
Maybe all part of Labour's internal squabbles about where the Party goes once Corbyn steps down

Or like Corbyn's DC going to grammar school because his ex put them there against his wishes (and it was apparently one of the reasons for their divorce)

RedToothBrush · 22/09/2019 23:35

And we end up back at the point of

'what is liberal democracy and what is its purpose and what is it supposed to do?'

Balance interests of all.

And when you fail to do that for some reason (trying to please a particular generation over the interests of another or due to austerity) the whole system collapses and you end up with a great big mess.

Why ARE so many people talking about politicians being out of touch and saying they aren't being properly represented?

It's not about Brexit. Brexit is just how it's manifesting.

There is an imbalance in the force.

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BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 23:36

Authoritarians tend to have a set of views including capital punishment, smacking, going to war etc

It's all part of having little patience with complex solutions or trying to obain a consensus,
but instead wanting a quick, simple answer forced through regardless of other views

Winner take all, losers are weepers

BigChocFrenzy · 22/09/2019 23:39

Several analyses, including by Will Hutton that I posted recently, explaining that the hard right have for years been pushing the idea that politicians are uselss, corrupt, out of touch elite etc

Because that gives the opening for the hard right to rebrand themselves as populists fighting the elite