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Brexit

Westminstenders: Constitutional History

959 replies

RedToothBrush · 18/09/2019 14:57

The Supreme Court case continues
(ruling possible Friday but likely Monday)

The new NI proposal is bollocks and Johnson didn't get why until it was discussed in Europe.

There was a press conference in Luxembourg which looks good for Johnson.

Johnsons approval ratings are up.

And we are making no obvious progress to anything but no deal...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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yolofish · 19/09/2019 00:29

Although we will never agree Louise just wanted to say that I really admire your stance, and your presence as a sane Leaver voice on here.

Apileofballyhoo · 19/09/2019 00:48

I think I remember Theresa May asking Jeremy Corbyn if he knew what the Customs Union was during one PMQ. So Boris doesn't actually know what the Single Market is? I wonder how many of the rest of them know/don't know what the CU, SM, FoM, Four Freedoms, the GFA, and the backstop actually are.

Even if they didn't know pre referendum, you'd think they would have looked stuff up by now, just out of idle curiosity. I thought Boris was just dumbing down his speech but it seems he has barely got a grasp on what things actually mean.

prettybird · 19/09/2019 00:50

Interesting that the two regular "reasonable" Leave posters (and I'm not putting the "reasonable" into quotes sarcastically - it's just to highlight it Smile) on these threads are both Scottish Wink

I may disagree (frequently Grin) with what they say, but I do respect both of them for being consistently considered, polite and defending their point of view with real, as opposed to unicorn, arguments Smile

CendrillonSings · 19/09/2019 01:06

Meanwhile, as everyone froths over the day’s inconsequentialisms...

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 32% (-)
LDEM: 23% (+4)
LAB: 21% (-2)
BREX: 14% (-)
GRN: 4% (-3)

via
@YouGov
12:09 am · 19 Sep 2019

Lovely numbers, especially for the Lib Dems, as their forthright policy propels them over Labour, who seem to have wedged themselves rather painfully on a fence. Welcome to leading the third party, Jezza!

BigChocFrenzy · 19/09/2019 01:13

Polls are inconsequentials at this stage, when we don't know how far away the next GE is

..... and whether it will be weeks after a hard Brexit

We don't know if shortages of fresh food, meds, school meals affected etc will help or hinder the Tories

BigChocFrenzy · 19/09/2019 01:15

Due to the cruelties of FPTP, those numbers would still give Labour far more seats than the LDems

CendrillonSings · 19/09/2019 01:25

But if the Labour and minor party vote gets squeezed further (compare Swinson and Corbyn’s favourability numbers to see the potential), then you reach a FPTP tipping point where things get really exciting. I’ve always wanted the LDs to replace Labour as the second party, but (to take my partisan hat off) they could in the long run, as a pro-European, pro-business, non-loony party, aim to replace the Tories...

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 19/09/2019 04:53

Just catching up with this thread.

The 30 September deadline, means that Boris will basically have nothing new to offer the EU regarding the Irish back stop ?

As far as I understand, TM’s WA has already been ratified by the EU, it just needs to be approved by the UK Parliament....

So the 2 options in the time available before 31st October are No Deal or the WA.

CurlyWurlyTwirly · 19/09/2019 05:07

Regarding the arguments whether this prorogation is legal; if it is ruled unlawful today; basically can just head back to work on Monday? Who’s decision is it that Parliament is open for business?

DGRossetti · 19/09/2019 06:45

On sky news: ukip leader refuses to attend ukip annual conference due to low ticket sales.

This is the party which had the Tories quaking in their boots ? Says more about the insecurity of being a Tory if you ask me (see also: BXP)

wheresmymojo · 19/09/2019 06:54

Captain Yogurt Weaver reporting for duty....

Anyone shared this poll yet?

Westminstenders: Constitutional History
Adesignforstrife · 19/09/2019 07:16

Let's not forget that a row over the BBC probably works quite nicely from a divide/conquer point of view.

CrunchyCarrot · 19/09/2019 07:18

Johnson 'has 12 days' to set out new plans' for Brexit...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49749465

CrunchyCarrot · 19/09/2019 07:19

Thanks for the thread, Red, struggling here to keep up with it all but you and the other regular posters are doing a sterling job! Flowers

chomalungma · 19/09/2019 07:21

It would be very very bad for democracy if a party that got more votes than 1 party got fewer seats than another party who go fewer votes.

Motheroffourdragons · 19/09/2019 07:26

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

Inniu · 19/09/2019 07:29

Is real movement happening on an NI only backstop. Arlene Foster was in Dublin yesterday and seemed to say there was. But would an NI backstop under another name get through the HoC even with DUP support?

TheMShip · 19/09/2019 07:30

It would be very very bad for democracy if a party that got more votes than 1 party got fewer seats than another party who go fewer votes.

See 2 of the last 5 American presidential elections.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 19/09/2019 07:33

If anyone has heard that someone has been 'ratioed' on Twatter and wasnt sure what is meant, that Kussenberg tweet 16.7K comments 1.2K retweets and 4.3K likes, theyve ratioed the fuck out of that Grin

fedup21 · 19/09/2019 07:35

I wonder if LK is ashamed of her tweet? Or pleased that it’s attracted so much attention?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 19/09/2019 07:49

Michelle Dorrell #EL4C
@Michelle4Labour
·
7h
Earlier this year, my son was hit by a bus. Whilst in the ambulance I tweeted praise for the service/staff and expressed my joy in having an NHS. Plus announced my intentions to campaign hard & save it from vulture capitalists.
Am I wrong for this because I’m a #LabourActivist

Isnt she the woman that used to vote Tory and got a lot of airtime after Question Time?

RedToothBrush · 19/09/2019 07:50

The Columnist @ SimeOnStylites
1. As another deadline looms, there is considerable speculation and disagreement about the likelihood of a Brexit deal.

But what are the principle negotiating dynamics and where might we look for the way out of the labyrinth?

THREAD

2. For obvious reasons, attention is focused on the Irish backstop.

We can debate the merit of the news and commentary swirl (sourcing quality, spin, bias (wilful or not)) but all view should be treated with healthy scepticism.

3. It might be better to focus on the logic of the overall situation, from which it is reasonable to draw the following tentative conclusions.

- A deal is more likely than a month ago

- A deal remains very unlikely

NB these views are not mutually exclusive

4. As a result, any view that suggests a deal is either...

- Going to happen, or

- Impossible

...Should be heavily discounted.

(There’s a tendency to look for 100% ‘results’. Instead, perhaps consider the negotiating dynamics lead to 75% / 25% outcomes (in the EU’s favour))

5. Why is a deal more likely than a month ago?

- The end of Oct looms
- Almost everyone prefers deal to no deal (UK factional exceptions may apply)
- Both parties prefer a deal to no Brexit (esp the UK govt)
- The UK has shifted from rejecting the WA to focusing on the backstop

6. As a result, a negotiation window has unsurprisingly appeared and there is a greater urgency to Brexit discussions.

It is also not surprising to see signs of incremental flexibility - an example on the EU side is the emphasis on the principle of the backstop.

7. BUT, a deal remains very unlikely.

- There has been no material change to the EU’s position
- The UK govt position remains that the substance of the backstop must change materially
- The UK govt has yet to produce a formal proposal

8. The interesting question is what would make a deal more likely.

We can discount the probability of the EU‘blinking’- this is not a credible view given the structural imbalance.

If a deal emerges, it is more likely to come from the UK govt shifting its position - the pivot.

9. But why would the Johnson govt make this painful move?

The answer lies in the new govt’s raison d’être - to leave the EU on October 31 “Do or die.”

And the successful passage of the Benn Bill.

10. Put simply, unless the govt negotiates a deal with the EU, the Benn Bill means there will very likely be another Brexit extension and the govt will have failed in its principal objective.

11. As a result, the key deal dynamic is whether the Johnson govt thinks it will do better at a General Election, following either:

(i) A Brexit extension (the Conservative Party versus Parliament etc), or

(ii) A major pivot to enable a deal (we delivered on our promise etc)

12. (NB And even if there is a pivot it will not be at all straightforward for a deal to pass the HoC)

13. Either way, Brexit watchers should search for signs of a pre October 31 deal becoming more likely NOT IN Brussels, Berlin, Dublin or Paris, BUT IN Westminster.

/ends

I don't necessarily agree but a logical thread

Interesting he focuses on the noises out of Brussels rather than Westminster too.

Another point about British journalism is our national obsession with personality over and above any substance. It definitely is a failing in Brexit reporting.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/09/2019 07:52

Innui No. The UK govt have not produced anything useable - they are just spinning that a deal is near