To be so let down and furious with the Lib Dems

[Oakenbeach]

I now don’t feel I have anyone I can vote for - they have shown they are every bit as extreme as the Brexit Party in their own way, and are no more than a grandiose pressure group rather than a party serious about governing.

Advocating revoking without a referendum, was not only entirely unnecessary, but shows they aren’t just EU supporters but rather EU obsessives, putting our membership above all else, even basic democratic principles.

In the highly unlikely event they do form a majority Government, it would be with a circa 35% vote share... How that trumps the Referendum’s 52% and still be democratic I don’t know.

Rant over...

But the LD are clear and certain. Brexit party is also clear. Not entirely sure what the Tory message would be, I assume try and leave with a deal? But even now they are a bit divided. And Labour are the least clear of all - negotiate a new deal (not sure this is possible- EU say they won’t renegotiate) which they’ve already declared they don’t want and then have a second referendum where they campaign against their new deal to remain - seems the worst of all worlds.

I don’t think asking for another referendum is a good idea or a vote winner. Leavers don’t want a new referendum, remainers want to revoke. There is no good way to ask another referendum without either biasing it, splitting the vote, taking an option out of it or ending up in a ‘best of 3’ battle. We all know that the country is pretty much split 50/50 on Brexit still, so any referendum is still going to reflect that and not be an overwhelming majority solve everything solution.

I was coming from the POV of defending the democratic validity of Revoke.

It's not a BETRAYAL!!! of the Leave ref vote, it's just, well, let's step back, take the pressure off, have a think about the specifics of what we really want to do.
No need for civil war, let's have a nice cup of tea. And kick this hot potato down the road in a very british way.

The Lib dems policy on the EU is perfectly clear.

The party believes our best future is as a member of the European Union. As an important member state we can participate in reforming the EU. We have a voice, a vote, a veto.

There is no type of brexit that would not damage our economy, our security, our NHS and care services, our science and universities, our environment, our social cohesion, our security and our standing in the world.

The Liberal Democrats are therefore absolutely committed to REMAIN.

The party supports a People's Vote and has been very active in the PV campaign. If a PV comes before a general election the Libdems will support it and campaign vigorously for Remain.

However if a general election comes first, the party's manifesto will include a commitment to Revoking Article 50 and Remaining in the EU in the event of the Libdems forming a majority government.

If you want brexit to stop, vote Liberal Democrat.

This question should never have been put to the people in the first place

If politicians over the past 20+ years had actually bothered to listen to the people and gauged public opinion, a referendum wouldn't have been needed. There had been growing objections to the ever-increasing scope of the EU super-state. The politicians could and should have put a brake on the UK's involvement. Yes, we didn't sign up to the Euro, nor the Shengen agreement, but there was an awful lot we did sign up to that we didn't need to. Remember the last time the public got a vote was in the 70s when we agreed to join the EEC - i.e. a common market for trade. We've never been given a say in the ECJ, free movement of people, etc. The politicians have decided for us. Blair chose not to restrict free movement of people when weaker Eastern European countries joined the EU - several other countries did. Did Blair ask the electorate? No. Sorry, but politicians over the last 20+ years are responsible for the whole sorry fiasco.

And kick this hot potato down the road in a very british way.

Which is what has caused this fiasco. Politicians over 20+ years have known there was growing opposition to the expansion of the EU. They chose to ignore it. If we don't "brexit" now, do you really think the issue will go away. It won't. It will dominate politics for years/decades to come. A "remain" win in a second referendum won't make the anti-EU opinions go away. Sooner or later there'll be another similar Brown's "bigotted woman" comment and it will all boil over again.

Theresa May has already committed £394 million extra per week by 2023/24

Theresa May - who was she?
Any one can make noises about spending. It needs to be in the hands of the NHS to be definitely available for spending.

Let's look at the facts:

In 2016 52% of people voted to leave the EU. On average leave voters were much older than remain voters. The youngest 18-24 cohort were heavily likely to vote remain (I can't remember the exact figure but believe it was over 70%)

Fast forward to now. Market research indicates that people's views are very entrenched i.e. not many voters have changed their minds. Young people in the 16-18 age group are heavily likely to be pro remain camp, similar to the 18-24s group in the referendum.

The demographics are not in favour of leave. If there isn't yet a majority for remain (and some research suggests there already is) then there very soon will be. Therefore it is perfectly reasonable for the Lib Dems policy to be straight revoke. Another referendum is only going to waste more time.

Has it escaped your notice that people’s political views change as they get older?

Just spotted this on Lib Dem Voice - Vince Cable 2019;

"Give EU Citizens a Vote in General Elections and Referendums"

So the Lib Dems want to change our voting demographic by 3 or 4 million? Presumably these new voters would be more likely to vote for a closer integration with the EU, join the Euro, EU army...?

www.libdems.org.uk/eu-citizens-voting-rights

The politicians could and should have put a brake on the UK's involvement.

It was suggested to Cameron that there might be an inner ring and outer ring of membership. Cameron rejected this because he wanted to be 'at the top table'.

Remember the last time the public got a vote was in the 70s when we agreed to join the EEC - i.e. a common market for trade.

Some of us are old enough to remember, and we were already in the EEC - Ted Heath took the UK in. If you are old enough to remember or bother to read up about it, he won a surprise election victory in 1970.

We've never been given a say in the ECJ, free movement of people, etc. The politicians have decided for us.

We do (or did have) a Parliamentary democracy, and we elect MPs to represent our best interests. I recall the 2015 Tory Manifesto having a commitment to the Single Market among other pledges. They won another surprise victory so it could be assumed that people liked that idea.

But since we are now on a whinge about not having a say - who voted for Dominic Cummings, our de facto PM?

I can't remember if it was Jo Swinson, or another LD MP, but some time ago on the lunchtime politics show, when they were campaigning for a second referendum, they were then challenged as to what they would do if the second referendum came back as No Deal Brexit. The reply was that she would still vote against it, thereby going against the referendum result a second time. I am not surprised they have now gone for the full Brexit blocking manifesto. If you are not going to honour a second referendum, you might as well come off the fence and go full on revoke.

Antigolds, did you not see my point that the market research shows that people's views are entrenched and they are not changing their minds? If the usual age rules applied you'd expect to see a small number of people changing their mind, even over the course of three years.

Usually yes, peoples views change with age, with people traditionally becoming more conservative as they get older. This is likely due to becoming more risk adverse with age, and also that they have more wealth which they are inclined to want to protect. But though it sounds contradictory, there is nothing 'traditionally' conservative about brexit at all. It is a highly risky course of action. No deal brexit in particular will massively decrease house prices, which are the bedrock of most older people's wealth. Therefore the usual political trends do not apply in this case.

Apologies for getting your name wrong

It was Swinson Arthur, she's not interested in democracy at all.

It was asked earlier but no one seems to know, what other policies do the LibDems have? Policies don't just materialise in a manifesto, they're worked on and publicised over the previous government. All I've seen from the Lib Dems is pro fracking, pro zero hours contracts, and... Well, what else? Then you've got to take into account the voting records of their newer MPs, which are all over the shop. I have no idea what they stand for beyond stopping Brexit.

Oh come on, which of us doesn’t want Brexit to just stop! It’s wasted three years of time and energy and untold £billions in cost. It was a bad idea and it won’t work. We need to get back to sorting out the REAL problems in the UK. If we vote for the LDs that’s what we can do.

Really? How is that going to happen exactly when they voted against a GE?

If you think we aren’t leaving on the 31st October you are seriously deluded. They had their chance to ‘win’ a general election but voted against it because they knew they’d lose and Brexit would have happened without all of this continued bullshit.

The LDs in their current state are Momentum with rainbows and fluffy puppies.

The majority in the HoC voted against a GE to prevent a no deal Brexit.
This isn't a complicated idea.

We may well leave on the 31st of October if a deal is sorted by then.
If not legally an extension has to be asked for.
Again this isn't a complicated idea.

As BJ is so keen to avoid asking for an extension hopefully he will manage to agree a deal with the EU.

The libdems look like a bunch of fanatical maniacs borne of the public remain hysteria.

This is going to have a disproportionate effect on the Monster Raving Loony Party.

Can they join forces to mitigate the raving loony losses.

This is looking like:
Vote Tory to leave.
Vote libdems to stay.
Vote labour for either, neither or whatever.

Has it escaped your notice that people’s political views change as they get older?

Yes as people got wealthier, they often did, but that is not the case now, generations of people can't buy property and will carry large debt into middle age, they also don't have the benefit of decent pensions either.

If the LDs win the next GE, they'd have achieved the biggest political upset ever, discarding both main parties to the scrap heap, they'd have every right to revoke art50.

Waiting for people to die is one way of achieving your political aspirations I suppose.

The issue is, if the Lib Dems get in and just revoke, they seem to think that’ll be the end of discussion and we can all go back to not talking about Brexit....that’s absolutely what will NOT happen. It will only divide us even more.
It’s funny, Jo Swinson backed a referendum years ago and now she’s so anti-Brexit that she doesn’t even want a second referendum- she just wants to do what she wants

I’ve yet to see any Remainers addressing the issue of why a majority of voters ticked the Leave box.

If (and I can barely type this for laughing) the Lib Dems did win a majority in a General Election, what would they do about all those ignored Leavers?

Asking for a friend.

The libdems look like a bunch of fanatical maniacs borne of the public remain hysteria.
The Tories look like a bunch of austerity-loving public-school educated fanatical maniacs resulting from the fetishisation of an advisory referendum and a fear of Farage.
Brexit Party looks like a bunch of no-manifesto, privately educated, out of touch, predominantly racist, infantile maniacs resulting from the fetishisation of an advisory referendum.
Labour looks like a bunch of fence-sitting, indecisive eejits who don't know their arses from their elbows.
Given that, many of us would find the LibDems the best of an extremely poor bunch.

See you at the polling booth then.

I’ve yet to see any Remainers addressing the issue of why a majority of voters ticked the Leave box.

Well at least some of them were groomed by the Express and Mail relentlessly banging on about the EU, foreigners, getting our country back etc etc. Some believed the NHS money lie, some are Little Englanders, some (the EDL/Democratic Football Lads Alliance bunch) are everyday racists. Others just hate being part of the EU for their own individual reasons and were happy to vote for something that had no plan.
Go figure.

Well at least some of them were groomed by the Express and Mail relentlessly banging on about the EU, foreigners, getting our country back etc etc
No smoke without fire