To be so let down and furious with the Lib Dems

[Oakenbeach]

I now don’t feel I have anyone I can vote for - they have shown they are every bit as extreme as the Brexit Party in their own way, and are no more than a grandiose pressure group rather than a party serious about governing.

Advocating revoking without a referendum, was not only entirely unnecessary, but shows they aren’t just EU supporters but rather EU obsessives, putting our membership above all else, even basic democratic principles.

In the highly unlikely event they do form a majority Government, it would be with a circa 35% vote share... How that trumps the Referendum’s 52% and still be democratic I don’t know.

Rant over...

They got in bed with the fucking Tories and you're just now 'furious' with them?

I only realised the other day that when Nick Clegg was leader having a referendum on Europe was in their manifesto!

I like the fact that it's unequivocal, a nice change from all the faffing around
Is it though? The policy is only unequivocal if they win a majority. If they dont they will throw the policy under the bus to get in power a coalition.

Oh come on, which of us doesn’t want Brexit to just stop!

Personally I’d love it to stop.... But your statement just shows your are in an echo chamber in the same way many Brexiteers are, who equally desperate just want Brexit to happen!

We can’t move forward if we retrench into our preferred positions and refuse to recognise the validity of those who disagree with us.

For too many people, the BP, the ERG wing of the Tories, and now the LDs, membership of the EU seems to trump everything else, including democracy, Parliament, and even the rule of law (depending on which one suits your cause).

Agree, I think it’s a gimmick and a good vote winner especially with Labour all over the shop. I’m not sure that, even if they were able to form a government, that they would actually revoke when it came down to it. They would have been better sticking with a PV as a policy.

only realised the other day that when Nick Clegg was leader having a referendum on Europe was in their manifesto!

I do vote LD but agree with Mistigri. In the unlikely event that the LDs had enough support to form a majority Government then they would have something like 35% or more of the vote share and would have a mandate. This is as good a mandate as the Leave Campaign had.

It needs to be asked, how many elections need to pass before the mandate is considered to have expired?

I have also got tired of hearing that 80% of people voted for parties which supported Brexit, but that Parliament is full of Remainers. If it is, isn't that the will of the electorate?

I am not sure that the LDs will go into any coalitions again, certainly not as a junior partner. I wasn't a member then, but would not have voted for it last time.

I'll be voting for them. I don't want a second referendum. I want revoke.

Credit where it’s due though, they have been consistent.

I hadn't seen Clegg's poster before, but it doesn't disagree with LD policy - he is promoting the benefits of the EU and said that the party would campaign for Remain. As I understand it, a PV hasn't been ruled out - it's much the most likely outcome of another hung Parliament.

The big problem with the Referendum result as I see it was twofold - Cameron didn't make any plans for what would happen with a Leave vote, leaving Leave campaigns carte blanche to promise the earth; then May decided that appeasing the ERG was the priority and set her red lines. Both of these could then have been handled differently - with Cameron not running away, and May saying that the vote was close, and setting up some sort of commission to look at the options available. Had she done so the proposal would probably have been for a soft Brexit which would have been good enough for a sizable majority.

I do vote LD but agree with Mistigri. In the unlikely event that the LDs had enough support to form a majority Government then they would have something like 35% or more of the vote share and would have a mandate. This is as good a mandate as the Leave Campaign had.

How is 35% as good a mandate as 52% ?

The damage to democracy of revoking in such circumstances would be appalling.... but it seems the wish to remain in the EU trumps democracy!

Imagine if the roles were reversed.... and Remain won the referendum, and the Tories - having been overrun by Brexiteers as is currently the case - said that they would take us out of the EU if they won the election. Would those who support the LDs accept that? Surely it would be hypocritical not to!

How is this a mandate then?
17410742/46500001 = 37.4%

We don't need to imagine if the roles were reversed - Farage had made it clear that it would be unfinished business if the result had gone the other way.

May went to the country and lost her majority, when she had already made it clear that she was pursuing a hard Brexit. If she'd got her 100 seat majority then yes, most of us would reluctantly have accepted that this was what people wanted.

Why, when the country rarely has Referenda, is it apparently damaging democracy, when a PM elected with something like 0.08% of the population but shutting down Parliament for his own expediency is apparently acceptable and not more damaging to democracy?

Should we just scrap Parliament altogether and just rule by Referenda?

Revoke maintains the status quo and is the preferred outcome of two out of four of the nations/provinces of the UK.

Any other alternative is a major constitutional change for which it would seem wise to have a significant majority.

Interesting. I am considering it carefully and will continue to do so, but I think it's nudged me towards them actually. It's clear that if they get a majority then they will by definition have the required mandate to 'reverse' Brexit (only a few billion £ and lots of time wasted on it and opportunity costs so far). FWIW i think they need to be more clear about how they would compromise with each party in order to form a coalition/informal agreements with other parties.

What are the Lib Dem's other policies ? Does anyone know?

They seem to just think ' we will stay in the EU and everything will be fine and dandy'
I've not heard any other ideas to stop inequality or how they stand on education or the environment or austerity or how to address people who do want to leave the EU.

The Brexit party is also one single policy party as well and will hoover up a lot of leave supporters who don't trust the tories.

As others said, another GE will just be another referendum on the EU and all the other things that's also important will be brushed away or buried under constant EU arguments for or against.

It's a right old mess.

Nobody has published GE manifestos for 2019, yet.

If LDs getting power on back of this policy is 'undemocratic', then so is every other election since, Oh, I dunno, 1992? Because the govts since then all got in power on < 50% of the vote. Maybe less than 40% from 2017 result. They all tried to implement policies as promised in their campaigning, on back of that minority % vote they received. This has been previously accepted as reasonably legit practice.

I need to see their compromise position too, as outright revoke will also lose remain voters who think that, despite their remain vote, the result should be implemented.

If they run with the 'The ONLY way to make Brexit go away is to revoke' message, they may win some people over.

I dunno. I'm just a bit uncomfortable with this position.

The problem is, revoking the ref even if lib fems won and it happened would be cataclysmic to British politics.

Well the PM seems to be allowed to disregard centuries of parliamentary constitution a d may even be breaking the law so not abiding by the result of a one off snapshot of public opinion that had deliberately been made non-binding is nothing in comparison.

In fact, I doubt there would be major protest if it was cancelled other than from a very few Tommy Robinson types. Cancelling it is the only way to stop it dominating news and political life which seems to be what most people want to happen. They will be sorely disappointed when they realise any form of leaving means Brexit will rumble on for years.

I agree Dippy, it seems that Parliamentary Democracy doesn't matter, only an advisory one off Referendum.

I think especially if there were real measures to end austerity, a lot of people would breathe a sigh of relief and get on with their lives, grateful that they were now a little easier.

But revoking A50 doesn't mean Brexit will never happen? A subsequent government could reinstate it.

Ideally with an actual plan this time.

A major contribution to the general Brexit shitshow is that a50 was invoked and the clock started ticking while we pissed about so we keep hitting deadlines and having to beg for extensions

Any LD government which was capable of enacting this policy would by definition have won a majority in the House of Commons, which is generally considered (by people who have a basic understanding of the British constitution) to give a party a mandate for their manifesto

Agree totally. It's highly unlikely that they would ever win a majority, so if they did, people have voted for them to do exactly what they promised to do.

A new Government could reinstate A50 but this time the public might not buy it, in the same way. They were promised £350 million a week for the NHS - they saw the NHS collapse, so they might think 'Nah, not falling for it this time.'

The Liberal Democrats are not going to get an easy time in the press - not a great idea to have Guy Verhofstadt at your party conference - he does tend to get carried away with the whole European Project thing;

"Lib Dems' glee as Guy Verhofstadt proclaims end of nation states"

"GUY VERHOFSTADT’s speech at the Liberal Democrat party conference, where he appeared to call for the formation of a united Europe, was met with applause from the audience."

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1178125/Brexit-news-Guy-Verhofstadt-Liberal-Democrat-Party-conference-European-Empire

and Chuka Umunna;

"failed to rule out his support for joining the Euro and any "European army" that could be established by the the EU 27 as a condition for the UK reestablishing its membership"

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liberal-democrats-brexit-uk-rejoins-eu-chuka-umunna-a9106456.html

Oh, and here's a lovely picture of Nick Clegg from 2010 as he expresses; "the Coalition Government’s firm support for Turkey’s EU membership plans"

www.gov.uk/government/news/nick-clegg-meets-president-of-turkey--2

2012 Nick Clegg Lib Dem Voice: “Turkish entry into the EU is a strategic necessity”

www.libdemvoice.org/nick-clegg-turkish-entry-into-the-eu-is-a-strategic-necessity-30574.html

They were promised £350 million a week for the NHS

From Full Fact - Theresa May has already committed £394 million extra per week by 2023/24.

fullfact.org/health/nhs-england-394-million-more/

But revoking A50 doesn't mean Brexit will never happen? A subsequent government could reinstate it.

That’s not really an argument though, is it?
A future government could try to introduce anything- capital punishment or Sunday closing of shops or you name it. They wouldn’t get anywhere unless it had a recent and solid mandate for whatever it actually was.

They wouldn’t have any national mandate to reinstate Art 50 on a GE vote that had seen the Lib Dems take power on a revoke Art 50 ticket and especially not if the govt had already revoked it, which is exactly what the LDs are proposing to do if they get in.

Since they are the only clear Remain choice I will be going with the Lib Dems at election time because leaving EU will clearly be disastrous (there isn’t any better deal available than just staying in Europe ) and there are about a million other better things I want our government to be worrying about constantly than trying to get us the least shit for us Brexit deal that they can scrape together.

Expecting a deal to emerge is looking totally fruitless now anyway since now we have a PM who seems to be happy for us to crash out with no deal and he doesn’t seem to have any actual deal to negotiate on anyway. It’s absolutely terrifying what a dangerous, delusional showboater he is.