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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's like a bloody aviary

961 replies

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2019 20:40

From Flamingos to Yellowhammer and Black Swans.

The Tory Remainer is now a Dodo. Instead the party in inhabited by disaster capitalist Vultures. Jeremy Corbyn, meanwhile, has been labelled by the right wing press as a Chicken. The SNP would very much like Boris Johnson to be a Jailbird. The LDs are keen to sing like Canaries about the contents of BlackSwan. The Br

And the Tower of London is starting to get very jumpy about the whereabouts and location of its Ravens.

I would not, however, advise eating urban wild pigeons if things get desperate, from what I know of their health.

OP posts:
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flouncyfanny · 13/09/2019 14:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DGRossetti · 13/09/2019 14:02

BBC newspage refreshingly Boris-free at the moment

prettybird · 13/09/2019 14:09

I linked to this earlier in the thread: James Cook going through the Scottish Lords judgement (and it is still worth following the link as it as it has the pictures of the relevant sections to refer to) but it is still worth posting his comments in full here as they warrant reading to explain the Lords' thinking - and the difference (or not Shock) between Scots and English Law and their references to previous Supreme Court judgements.

James Cook
Verified account
@BBCJamesCook
15h15 hours ago

THREAD I have been wading through the full judgment from Scotland's highest civil court, the Court of Session, on the prorogation of parliament this evening (with assistance, as you can see). Here are some points I think are interesting. #Prorogation #TheNine

First, what is this all about? A group of parliamentarians led by @joannaccherry of the SNP wanted to stop the prorogation (suspension) of parliament, which has now taken effect, arguing that it was unlawfully designed to stymie parliamentary debate on Brexit.

As it happened the High Court in London has rejected a similar case but one argument made by the petitioners in Edinburgh (that is, Ms Cherry and co) was that Scotland (which has its own legal system pre-dating the 1707 union with England) had different law in this matter.

This was an appeal after a judgment in favour of the UK government by Lord Doherty (referred to here as the Lord Ordinary). An interesting argument by the petitioners suggested if the court couldn't intervene the "only option to prevent tyranny would be to 'take to the street'."

The petitioners cited examples from 1567, 1660 and 1669 (all before the 1707 union of the parliaments of Scotland and England) to make their case.

And so to the decision. In the opinion of the presiding judge, indeed Scotland's senior judge, the Lord President, Lord Carloway, a prime minister asking a monarch to use her prerogative COULD be reviewed by the courts in certain circumstances.

"If the reasons for the decision were based upon legitimate political considerations, including a desire to see that Brexit occurs, they would not be challengeable. However, that is not the contention..." writes Lord Carloway.
Rather, the contention is that the prime minister did not provide the true reasons for prorogation. "The real reason, it is said, is to stymie Parliamentary scrutiny of Government action." In this, Lord Carloway effectively finds, Boris Johnson was not being truthful.
It's notable that Lord Carloway opines that this is not because of "any speciality of Scots constitutional law," but from applying "the principles of democracy and the rule of law", citing a case from the UK Supreme Court. With an appeal to the UKSC expected, that is interesting.

The Lord President goes on... "The circumstances demonstrate that the true reason for the prorogation is to reduce the time available for Parliamentary scrutiny of Brexit at a time when such scrutiny would appear to be a matter of considerable importance..."

The judge summarises the reasons why he doesn't believe the prime minister. Among them: the “clandestine" manner of seeking prorogation; its "extraordinary length”; the lack of explanation to the court; the tenor both of the PM’s remarks to, and of the discussions in, cabinet.
Lord Carloway dismisses the claim that party conference season meant only a few extra days would be lost by prorogation, arguing that it would ordinarily be covered by a recess set by parliament itself not by prorogation. Full reasons here (from 53): scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-s…
The court, says Lord Carloway, "is not dictating the days on which Parliament should sit. That is a matter for Parliament to decide. It is merely holding that a particular attempt to restrict the available days is unlawful."
Lord Carloway concludes "prorogation...is unlawful and thus
null and of no effect." As you can see I will have to grab a refill before I set out on the opinions of the other two judges. If anyone is interested?

Hardly a clamour but I will continue with Lord Brodie.

Lord Brodie refers to arguments "both interesting and stirring about a particularly Scottish tradition of holding the Crown...to account" although the lawyer had not "actually identified any material differences between the applicable Scots law and the corresponding English law".

Lord Brodie says he agrees with Lord Doherty that the Claim of Right Act 1689 (much discussed in this case) is too vague to provide a basis for overturning any particular prorogation of parliament.

This is the headline, which we already knew from the summary of the judgment, from Lord Brodie's opinion: the purpose of prorogation was to dodge parliamentary scrutiny and allow the government "to pursue a policy of no deal Brexit without further Parliamentary interference."

Part of Lord Brodie's reasoning: the PM's professed principal policy objective was Brexit by Hallowe'en "irrespective of the consequences of such a withdrawal" and a sitting parliament "presents the potential to interfere" with that. See point 89. scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-s…
Lord Brodie says both the secrecy and the length of prorogation was significant as were Mr Johnson's cabinet discussions about the importance of "messaging".

Lord Brodie says political manoeuvres are not necessarily justiciable but "when the manoeuvre is quite so blatantly designed 'to frustrate Parliament' at such a critical juncture in the history of the United Kingdom...the court may legitimately find it to be unlawful."

Interestingly Lord Brodie also makes his case by referring to a Supreme Court judgment, this one by the (now retired) Lord Sumption who, as it happens, has been on the airwaves this week arguing that these cases are political not justiciable.

Finally from Lord Brodie, he just thinks the government has gone too far here. "I see this as an egregious case," he opines.

OK. No wine left but here's Lord Drummond Young.
Spoiler alert. He agrees with the other two.

Lord Drummond Young points out that government counsel acknowledged that there may be cases when prorogation of parliament was a matter for the courts.

The judge also makes the point that, in his view, the party conference issue is a red herring in assessing the length of prorogation as it would normally be dealt with by recess which could be revoked by parliament "at any time".

"The effect of proroguing Parliament," writes Lord Drummond Young "is to prevent, or at least to limit severely, the ability of Parliament to perform its essential function of holding the executive to account."

Like his fellow judges, Lord Drummond Young is unimpressed by what he sees as a lack of credible explanation for prorogation from Downing Street, writing that "no attempt is made...to explain why a prorogation of five weeks is necessary at a time of acute national controversy."
Lord Drummond Young goes on: "...the government, and the Prime Minister in particular, wished to restrict debate in Parliament for as long as possible..."

In conclusion, the judge writes, there was "not a proper purpose for proroguing Parliament."

Final points. It's my impression that Lord Drummond Young attaches more importance to 17th century law in this case than do his fellow judges. And he too quotes case law from the UK Supreme Court where this is all now heading. ENDS (having run out of wine quite some time ago).

  • - -

Link again to the original (with pictures Wink)
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1172252249667592193.html

Basilpots · 13/09/2019 14:12

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/speaker-house-commons-candidates

Information about the runners and riders to replace Bercow for those interested.

yolofish · 13/09/2019 14:14

The bastard's lips are moving oop north - he is lying again.

FishesaPlenty · 13/09/2019 14:40

South leafy nice part of Trafford.

A Leave protest @RedToothBrush, where? That's my home turf, or ex-home turf I suppose.

I'm just reading a couple of pages here when I get chance at the moment and missing loads so sorry if it's 2 pages back or something.

And thanks for keeping these threads going. Flowers

Hoooo · 13/09/2019 15:04

Mum has been dx with severe osteoporosis today.

Yet another medication to worry about.

Ffs.

TheABC · 13/09/2019 15:13

Flowers, Hooo.

dontcallmelen · 13/09/2019 15:15

Hoooo so sorry 💐

DGRossetti · 13/09/2019 15:21

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-news-latest-woman-brexit-video-austerity-doncaster-cheek-visit-public-a9103906.html

independent.co.uk
Boris Johnson confronted by woman: 'You’ve got the cheek to come here'
Adam Forrest @adamtomforrest
7-9 minutes

Boris Johnson has been confronted by an angry voter during a walkabout in Doncaster who said he had “a cheek” to come to her town. The woman accused the prime minister of telling the public a “fairy tale” over Brexit.

She told Mr Johnson: “People have died because of austerity. And you’ve got the cheek to come here and tell us austerity is over and it’s all good now and we’re going to leave the EU and everything’s going to be great – it’s just a fairytale.”

After telling Mr Johnson she would rather have a Labour Brexit than a Tory Brexit, he claimed: “If you look at it, the Labour Party have decided that they don’t even want to do Brexit after all.”
We’ll tell you what’s true. You can form your own view.

From 15p €0.18 $0.18 USD 0.27 a day, more exclusives, analysis and extras.

She responded by telling him: “They’re going to give everybody a vote on an actual deal – that’s more than what you’re going to do.”

Mr Johnson was surrounded by excited shoppers as he visited the South Yorkshire town, which voted by 69 per cent to leave in the EU referendum but is regarded as a Labour stronghold.

As he walked around stalls inside the market’s indoor Corn Exchange on Friday morning, the prime minister stopped to speak to a fish seller.

Mr Johnson was heard remarking: “Look at that... lobster claws. We’ve got to take a few claws out of that Withdrawal Agreement.”

After stepping outside into the packed marketplace, Mr Johnson reassured one shopper: “We’ll get you out, we’ll get us out.”

Boris Johnson shops at a fruit and veg stall in Doncaster (Getty Images)

He also told a trader “we’re going to get a deal”, adding: “That’s the plan, anyway. And if we don’t, we’re coming out on October 31. That’s what we're going to do. Here we go, that’s democracy.”

The prime minister showed no reaction as one man told him: “Find a deal here? This is Doncaster, not Europe.”

The latest news on Brexit, politics and beyond direct to your inbox

The latest news on Brexit, politics and beyond direct to your inbox

The prime minister also stopped off at a “cob shop”, smiling as he bought a loaf of bread and scones from the stall.

As he visited a fruit stall, Mr Johnson moved towards some Belgium strawberries, before eventually buying English Victoria plums.

The prime minister is visiting South Yorkshire after northern politicians made a joint call for more help in their regions from his government.

In a speech later on Friday, he is expected to say: “It is time that we gave more people a say over the places where they live, and it is time that we gave you the proper ability to run things your way.

“We are going to maximise the power of the North. And we are going to make sure that it is people here who are in control over the things that matter to them.”

ImNotYourGranny · 13/09/2019 15:31

Why is this idiot still saying that we are leaving on 31 October when asked what happens if he can't get a deal. He's telling people he's going to break the law.

DGRossetti · 13/09/2019 15:34

Why is this idiot still saying that we are leaving on 31 October when asked what happens if he can't get a deal.

Because that's what the papers will print, and what people will remember. As noticed on these threads, hardly anyone will notice when the message then changes. Bear in mind, 30% of the population still don't know about Brexit at all yet.

Peregrina · 13/09/2019 15:39

As noticed on these threads, hardly anyone will notice when the message then changes.

But Doncaster has noticed that his promises have a hollow ring.

DGRossetti · 13/09/2019 15:44

But Doncaster has noticed that his promises have a hollow ring.

I must admit, you have to question the judgement of any Tory who thought he'd get a good reception in Doncaster, but for Boris to fall prey to the same delusion does speak volumes about his lack of self awareness.

Peregrina · 13/09/2019 15:52

But Justine Greening is or was a Tory and comes from Rotherham, even if she doesn't represent them, so to have produced her some people in the area must like what the Tories represented.

I think it's significant that she is one who got kicked out of the Tory party, and also chose to stand down when May wanted to demote her from Education, when by all accounts she was beginning to repair some of Gove's damage. So a moderate flavour of Tory, not a Johnson Tory.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 13/09/2019 16:02

Oh hooo Thanks

Violetparis · 13/09/2019 16:03

Just seen footage of people shouting Liar at Boris in Stocksbridge (near Sheffield). Clips for social media works both ways.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/09/2019 16:06

Hooo 💐
Runs on both sides of my family. A nasty painful disease that damages quality of life

I hope she receives all her meds promptly

DGRossetti · 13/09/2019 16:07

Just seen footage of people shouting Liar at Boris in Stocksbridge (near Sheffield). Clips for social media works both ways.

Incoming story about Boris fondness for his other hobby of playing a lyre (from his classicist days) in 3..2..1 ...

PestyMachtubernahme · 13/09/2019 16:09

When is Boris going to realise he is just a pawn and rather disposable?

Also why is he not in Brussels?
Why is he dashing around campaigning?

Violetparis · 13/09/2019 16:09

DGR Grin

JeSuisPoulet · 13/09/2019 16:11

Even the Express are running the Boris was heckled story!

Yes that's the Yellowhammer doc we had on here that I remember too. Much more detailed.

I also found these today which are a bit of light relief:

Boris and Keunssberg sitting on the bench captions.

MockersthefeMANist · 13/09/2019 16:12

Justine Greening is or was a Tory and comes from Rotherham...

as does Jeremy Clarkson.

Hoooo · 13/09/2019 16:14

Thank you all.
Sorry to moan :(
The drs have all been great.
I've also got to take 4 bp readings for her for per day for the next 7 days. Not quite sure how I'm going to manage that logistically...
Oh, and one of the meds on the shortage list is one mums on and the dr has just doubled the dose! Bloody hell.

JeSuisPoulet · 13/09/2019 16:14

I love watching Boris getting heckled and having things thrown at them. It's a bit like meditation for me Grin. Could you share the link please? Google and twitter throwing up blanks...