Westminstenders: It's like a bloody aviary

[RedToothBrush]

From Flamingos to Yellowhammer and Black Swans.

The Tory Remainer is now a Dodo. Instead the party in inhabited by disaster capitalist Vultures. Jeremy Corbyn, meanwhile, has been labelled by the right wing press as a Chicken. The SNP would very much like Boris Johnson to be a Jailbird. The LDs are keen to sing like Canaries about the contents of BlackSwan. The Br

And the Tower of London is starting to get very jumpy about the whereabouts and location of its Ravens.

I would not, however, advise eating urban wild pigeons if things get desperate, from what I know of their health.

This policy has had to be explained as people seem to think its revoke full stop not conditional

And you can see people just saying that Vote Lib Dem and you get revoke.

If I put an EU flag up near me, I think my house would get attacked.

I don't feel an urge to put up any flag, anywhere on my property. Never had, and can't say I will in future. But then I don't really feel that insecure about where I live.

So if the LDs end up backing a last min deal to avoid no deal that might be an issue.

Would they back it if it was attached to a people’s vote with remain on the ballot I wonder ?

Otherwise they could end up nodding through a no deal by default.

twitter.com/tppodcast_/status/1172096824745873408?s=21

Some thoughts on how a second referendum would work.

Gone for 23!!! 🏏

Tobee

Gone for 23!!!

I often find myself switching between this site and any sport going on at the time. Good to know Tobee's just outed herself too!

We have to make arrangements to leave the island, whereas on the continent, you can simply drive between countries.

London is close to Paris than Manchester ...

I do think that being an island definitely affects our relationship with the EU.

I think it is a lot more than geography, as Ireland's relationship has not been hampered by being an island on the very edge of Europe.

History's influences leading to a deep suspicion and mistrust of Germany and the relentless political and media negativity and rhetoric has led us to where we are today. Successive governments have happily allowed this to happen as they could effectively just blame the EU for everything that was wrong. Much easier to allow the nasty EU Germans narrative to continue rather than take responsibility for their own failings.

DG My point is that where I see the UK flag flying outside business, hotels etc, I don't see the EU flag next to it

In Germany I usually do see the EU flag if there is a German flag

it is noticeable how much rarer EU flags have always been in the UK, whereas in Germany I habitually see them if the german flag is flown

Up until 2016 it was very rare to see British flags flying in Britain - certainly outside of London. We were never a flag flying bunch - so it never struck me as strange not to see another flag either. Town Halls etc didn't fly the British flag, they didn't fly the EU flag. Now they are more likely to fly the union jack because we are in a more populist era - and obviously don't fly the EU flag because populism has come in by rejecting the EU. Whereas abroad local govt buildings have always (in my experience anyway) been more likely to fly a flag - and so fly the EU flag beside it. But just because the local govt chooses or doesn't choose to display a flag has no bearing on what the people in the street actually think or feel before that flag is hoisted - I have no say in what gets flown over Leeds town hall.

Prior to 2016 no businesses flew flags of any stripe. They do now because we are in a populist era. Some choose not to fly the EU flag ( a lot of hotels still do) because the populism has come from rejecting the EU - but it still doesn't actually reflect what the majority of people on the street think. It is a business decision to attempt to embrace the populist zeitgeist - but I - and I expect many other people feel troubled by the decision - and find it completely unbritish.

We never particularly flew our own flag - it wasn't weird or not joining in to not fly the EU one, if the British one wasn't being flown either. Of course the effect on seeing the EU flag beside your nation's flag may have an effect on the way you see the EU vs not seeing it ... but before 2016 we never saw our own flag either - it just wasn't done. That cultural quirk may have left us psychologically less integrated than other EU countries - but it didn't actually spring from wanting to be less integrated - it came from the fact that we just didn't see any type of flag anywhere.

I'll admit I don't particularly 'like' the EU in the way that I 'like' cats or the Harry Potter books or Christmas - but I agree with what it stands for. I find the idea that I'm supposed to 'like' a parliament/ trade bloc a bit weird. I don't 'like' our parliament either - but I agree we need one and I expect it to do it's job and take my responsibility towards maintaining that seriously. Similarly I don't 'like' the UN - but I don't disagree with it or think we should leave.

It isn't about 'liking' - it's about agreeing with what something stands for and understanding the benefits (which I would argue is a type of 'liking' anyway). The EU isn't there to be 'liked' - it's there because it's mutually beneficial for all concerned. If people want to 'like' it like it's Harry Potter that's up to them - but it's not weird or curmudgeonly or not joining in properly if you agree with what it offers but don't want to make a big thing of it - or even want to think about it, as long as it works.

Britain now has the most grass roots pro EU groups in all of Europe and has probably has the most pro EU rallies/ marches and demonstrations of all EU countries in the past three years. Last night was the last night of the proms - and evening of unabashed British patriotism - and a casual observer would have thought the national flag was the EU one because that was the one most clearly in abundance.
But apparently we don't 'embrace' the EU like our foreign counterparts because some people on the internet decide that embrace comes from fear of change rather than actually agreeing with the EU.
Prior to 2015 no one was thinking about it so we weren't embracing it, and now we're openly flying the flag and rallying to show our support of it - we're only embracing it through fear. We can't fucking win can we?

And for the record - I think flags and anthems are very strange, one of those ideas that if you suddenly announced it to a population who had never heard of such an idea would make you look batshit. 'Here's a little picture to show we all come from the same (very big - and with massive differences within it) place - and to show we're different to them over there.' Utterly mental.
So yes, whilst I happily wave an EU flag on a pro EU march - or enjoy a rendition of 'ode to joy' - I do think it's a bit weird that a trading bloc wants these things under normal circumstances. That doesn't mean I don't value the EU or my citizenship of it.

It can be cheaper to fly via Berlin than to take a UK train, if you want to get from one part of the Uk to another ....

I think it is a lot more than geography, as Ireland's relationship has not been hampered by being an island on the very edge of Europe.

Earlier this year, there was a fascinating documentary on how the latest archaeological discoveries had revolutionised our (British) understanding of our (British) prehistoric past.

One of the stand out messages was how incredibly integrated Britain was to "mainland" Europe. With the most stunning reason become clear when you removed the land borders, and just looked at water. All of a sudden Britain is on the intercontinental network of rivers and waterways - just as much as "Germany", "France" and further southern Europe. With DNA and artefactual evidence showing that far from being a misty island of mystery, Britain was at the heart of a vibrant trading and cultural landscape. Which blows the bloody doors of the repeated Kipper view that Britain - and the "British" are somehow "unique".

Similarly I don't 'like' the UN - but I don't disagree with it or think we should leave.It isn't about 'liking' - it's about agreeing with what something stands for and understanding the benefits (which I would argue is a type of 'liking' anyway

It is agreeing with what it stands for. Just like the UN. There are massive issues with it, it could do with some reforming, but it's far better to be in something that you believe in, than on the outside.

Fundamentally, the idea of a trading bloc with our closest neighbours, with which we share a close bond, a shared history and lots of similar values is a good thing.

pretzels The EU is a trading bloc, but it is also far more; a political entity too
"the ever closer union of people"

That's what I mean by the gulf between the UK and rEU - most of them understand what the EU is and how it is developing with ever more political integration
tbh, many of the more cerebral Leavers like the Norths also understand this - and are totally opposed to it

However, if all you want is a trade bloc, then the EU is not what you are looking for - even the old Common Market was much more than that

I feel far more loyalty & affection to the EU than I do to the UK;
I feel much closer to its principles
I value my EU citizenship more

Peter Walker@peterwalker99

New;
Lib Dem conference overwhelmingly approved policy to revoke article 50 if they win a majority at the next election.

Worth stressing:
this is a largely theoretical policy, intended mainly to distinguish the Lib Dems as the most anti-Brexit party.
I’d be surprised if there was a single person in the entire hall who believes they will win a majority at the election.

DG My point is that where I see the UK flag flying outside business, hotels etc, I don't see the EU flag next to it

I'll be honest and say I can't say I've ever really noticed. I have seen Union Flags and EU flags in the UK on occasion, but (thankfully) it's not as apparently compulsory as in the US. I guess there's a case for flags outside official buildings - to mark them as such. But beyond that, as I've said, I get a tad sniffy about flags everywhere. Because that's just stealth bunting as far as I am concerned.

I can't unlink the phrase "flags start to fly" from the more chilling "feet start to pound" lyric that signals things are not about to get better any time soon.

Anyone who saw the second part of "Rise of the Nazis" with the archive footage of children playing on sandcastles festooned with swastikas should get where I am coming from.

Peter Walker@peterwalker99

There is some opposition, though - LD activist from Sunderland warns that the revoke A50 policy is all about “piling on more and more remain votes in London”
and will not help the party in NE, Wales etc.

Says it’s also too absolutist.

It DEFINITELY is cheaper to fly Ryanair/easyjet to most Eu destination than taking a London to Liverpool train on a Monday morning!
I think in general european countries are not THAT obsessed with flags, unless it’s some sport event. Most USA schools have a daily routine of flag up/anthem/hand on heart and an incredible % of USA homes have the flag on the roof/in the garden/I’ve seen it over the dog’s house....Canada is somehow close, but not quite as obsessed....
Where I come from, along my street, there’s plenty of flags hanging at the windowsills. A few EU, and most rainbows....you’d only see the Italian one during the World Cup or the olympics, but I’ve got to be honest, I can’t remember the last time I’ve noticed it.

The EU is a trading bloc, but it is also far more; a political entity too

So is the UK. And as Scotland and NI are discovering, not a very nice one at that. Plus there's extra layer of irony that the one region of the Union that actually looks like a separate country - Wales - is actually the closest bound to England.

Like the Salvation Army "using the Devil's tools (music ! )
if there are going to be flags flying, I'll make sure mine - the EU flag - is up there

The last couple of years, it is noticeable how many young folk wave & smile at me when they see my EU cap and / or bike flag

• and I am a Woman of an Invisible Age

On this topic, I think this is a good podcast www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b09ws5p6

Just catching back out having been playing in the sunshine today.

The problem with Jeremy Corbyn is Seamus Milne.

If Corbyn had saner advisers he would be able to get off the fence and make absolutely clear policies and scare the bejeesus out of the Tories.

and getting rid of Milne is a lot simpler and quicker that most other things

We are not a flaggy nation. At the Olympics, we wear our flag on our arses. Our flag is a shopping bag, a teatowel, a brand.

During the Iraq War, Saddam's Boys made the journos walk across a union jack doormat. A great insult in their book, but we thought they were making us welcome.

We are not a flaggy nation

And long may it stay that way.

In the I-can-never-recommend-it-enough-even-if-over-25-years-old "Parliament of Whores" the case P.J.O. Rourke chooses to follow through SCOTUS is about a ban a state placed on burning the flag in a state park. It's absolutely hilarious (if you like that sort of thing). With the supremes clearly having fun trolling both sides lawyers (they discuss the possibility of a "message gap" a burning flag might have ).