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Brexit

Westminstenders: "I don't give a flying flamingo"

959 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2019 11:18

Amid scenes parliament was shut down.

In an unprecedented comment the Speaker, stated it was not an ordinary prorogation and it was blatantly an attempt to stop the executive being held to account.

And now it seems a Scottish Court agree with him:
"Lord Brodie cont: "the principal reasons for the prorogation were to prevent or impede parliament holding the executive to account and legislating with regard to Brexit, and to allow the executive to pursue a policy of a no deal Brexit without further parliamentary interference"

Thus parliament must reopen. Unless the decision is overturned in a higher court.

This is constitutionally a big deal. The Queen is highly unlikely to attend a reopening, especially in this manner, due to how political it now is.

General Election campaigning has already began with parties trying to take full advantage of the fact that there are currently no rules over spending.

Dominic Cummings actively and openly campaigning for the Conservatives whilst paid as a civil servant by the tax payer is a huge breech of the Civil service code but MPs are struggling to pin the government down on this as its being obstructive.

Cummings is keen to use data to target and personalise people based on their usage of the .gov portal for Brexit. This is OK as its in the national interest apparently. Its also incredibly sinister and concerning about how this could be used against the population.

Anyway if you thought parliament closing would result in a lull in events you were very much mistaken!!

What next?

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JeSuisPoulet · 11/09/2019 14:11

My prediction, for what is is worth, is that if gov don't release Yallowhammer by 11pm we may find Wales and/or Scotland doing it for them. I'm assuming Scottish Gov have also seen it and after today...

DGRossetti · 11/09/2019 14:16

My prediction, for what is is worth, is that if gov don't release Yallowhammer by 11pm we may find Wales and/or Scotland doing it for them

We don't have a brothers keeper law in the UK, but I wonder what a legal challenge to the Welsh/Scottish governments asking them to comply with the will of parliament would do ?

Cailleach1 · 11/09/2019 14:18

JeSuis, it is in England. Chillingham Castle in Northumberland.

Lisette1940 · 11/09/2019 14:21

PMK thanks Red

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2019 14:23

imo,The danger to the Tory party of a BXP pact is that the BXP could take them over

The Tory party is an empty shell operation, low membership, just lost most of its best & brightest MPs, probably more to go,
dependent on rich hedge-fund donors and dodgy psyops
Ripe for takeover

The BXP is of course also a shell operation, but it was deliberately set up that way - it's a feature, not a bug

So, those making the decision still prioritise the Tory party over getting Brexit through - even if the members don't

DGRossetti · 11/09/2019 14:24

Paging JRM, paging JRM ...

Hilary BennVerified account @hilarybennmp 2h2 hours ago Following today’s unprecedented Court of Session judgement that the prorogation of Parliament was unlawful, the way to bring Parliament back is for there to be a Royal Proclamation under the 1797 Meeting of Parliament Act. See para 8.11 of Erskine May below.

Westminstenders: "I don't give a flying flamingo"
OhYouBadBadKitten · 11/09/2019 14:24

Just posted on the wrong thread. According to SODEM Bercow has just gone into the House of Commons.

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2019 14:25

In the Guardian it says that the Speakers Office have confirmed that parliament can only be reopened if the PM recalls parliament. How does that work if the PM is the one breaking the law to close it in the first place?
If the courts have ruled that parliament must reopen then the obligation to reopen parliament lies with the government and not the Speaker.

The Prime Minister is not above the law, so failure to obey a court order would have legal consequences for the Prime Minister personally.

If the Supreme Court effectively says that Scottish law is invalid, might it not then strike at the acts of Union by which Scotland is part of the Union ?
The Supreme Court will probably take the Scottish ruling into account, as they have to explain why its been gone against it in that scenario.

David Allen Green has explained that Scottish Courts take a different approach to constitutional matters, but they have to have a reason to do so.

Indeed:

Dinah Rose QC @DinahRoseQC
The English HC has ruled that reasons for prorogation are not justiciable - it's not for courts to decide whether they're proper or not. The Scottish court has decided they are justiciable, and that the reasons for the prorogation were improper. SC will have to resolve both Qs.

So the English Court didn't agree nor disagree that prorogation was right or wrong, just that it wasn't appropriate for it make a judgement. Thats a very particular distinction and position.

David Allen Green
David Allen Green @davidallengreen
The English High Court held the question was "non-justiciable" - ie, politics not law

The Scottish court held it was justiciable and also there was improper motive

If Supreme Court says it is justiciable then....
....well
May also find improper motive

Thats why going through the courts in Scotland is so important because it gives a weight to the case in the English Courts and something to support their position - and a very particular angle that the Supreme Court now has to clarify.

I think.

Sources in No10 now hitting back at the Scottish judges, suggesting they are politically biased: "We note that last week the High Court in London did not rule that prorogation was unlawful. The legal activists choose the Scottish courts for a reason".

This was rebuffed by the Lord Chancellor whose duty it is to protect the judiary:

Robert Buckland QC MP@RobertBuckland
Our judges are renowned around the world for their excellence and impartiality and I have total confidence in their independence in every case.

So the later statement:
“The Prime Minister has total confidence in the independence of the judiciary”.

Either means there has been:

  1. A reversal from No. 10.
  2. A full on slap down against 'the source at number 10' directly by the Prime Minister.
  3. Or its a classic Trump tactic of saying two things at once to get a certain message to a core group of voters.

If its no 2, this does tend to suggest there is some conflict between 'a source at No.10' and the PM.

I think we can assume from the professionalism on display that the 'source at No.10' is something of a wildcard - thus there aren't too many numbers you can guess this to be.

If this is the case it seems there's an arguement brewing between Johnson and Cummings. Cummings seems to have wildly over stepped the mark and his authority here, and has tried to directly and deliberately undermine the rule of law.

If its no 3, this is rather more troubling and does back up the idea that Johnson and Cummings are deliberately seeking to erode the rule of law over time, using public outrage to do so.

I can't overstate how dangerous this course of action, potentially is, for a variety of reasons.

www.itv.com/news/2019-09-11/robert-peston-has-cabinet-yet-been-shown-legal-advice-on-why-closing-parliament-is-allowed/
Robert Peston: Has Cabinet yet been shown legal advice on why closing parliament is allowed?

This is fascinating:
Has any member of Cabinet seen the full legal advice given to the prime minister, which persuaded Johnson proroguing or suspending parliament is lawful?

Julian Smith asked for it, on the day Cabinet was bounced into agreeing prorogation.

Amber Rudd asked for it subsequently.

I am not aware that either got it. Instead they received a "trust me" from Boris Johnson.

This could be a problem for him and ministers because the ministerial code, amended after Chilcott Enquiry into the legality of going to war in Iraq, says all ministers have right to see full legal advice - not just summaries - on all contentious issues.

Will Cabinet now get the advice after today’s Court of Session judgement?

For their own self-preservation perhaps they should see it, and have that deferred (ahem) robust Cabinet debate on whether closing Parliament is appropriate.

Now what if this doesn't turn up OR if it does turn up and the legal advice given said prorogation was unlawful but it was ignored by Johnson/Cummings???

Things seem to be getting deeper and messer by the second.

And hey check this out:

David Allen Green @davidallengreen
If the Supreme Court follows the Scottish court and finds that Boris Johnson misled the Queen...

...then he presumably will have to resign.

Remember the Prime Minister is accountable to the Queen. If the Queen can not trust the Prime Minister and this is how the Crown has ruled, there's a bit of a constitutional issue here. Surely?

I'm reading @Cath_Haddon on this who IS a constitutional crisis and she says this:

Dr Catherine Haddon @cath_haddon
This ruling is that it was the PM's advice to the Queen on prorogation is unlawful.

That does not (yet) change the prorogation itself. Though of course will add to pressure

Supreme Court on all this is next Tuesday.

Regardless of the final outcome, it is pretty uncomfortable position for the Palace.

HM acts on the Advice of her PM. For a court to rule that advice was unlawful, even if the ruling is later rejected, opens up qs about how that advice is given. She has to be able to trust No.10

To add, this does not mean prorogation will not be affected. But it has been prorogued. It can be recalled.

That said, given the mood in Parliament, I would not put it past any MPs to turn up to work and try and test the judgement.

Also, we are still working this out ourselves. So bear with me on my responses to the judgement.

So it seems like everyone, including the Constitutional Experts, don't know what happens next or what this means.

That means, we are into full blown CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS status now.

Which Grieve has pretty much come out and said:

Rachel Kennedy @rachelkennedy84
Grieve: I would hope that the government would realise the extent of the crisis it's created and recall Parliament immediately @BBCNormanS

I know that on Monday there was some chatter about impeachment of Johnson. Which was just that, and not really particularly serious.

However if the Supreme Court agrees with the Scottish Court, and Johnson remains obstructive, I do think the idea of impeachment starts to become a very real one.

However as we've seen with the US, this doesn't mean they would...

I don't know if that explains anything a bit more, or whether that just confuses everyone even more, but thats where my understanding currently is at - but as I said it looks like the constitutional experts are scratching their heads so I'm not sure what hope there is for us mere mortal plebs!

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Apileofballyhoo · 11/09/2019 14:27

If the Tories entered a pact with the BXP, it could stop Labour voters voting BXP. #VoteBrexitGetTory. So it suits them better to not have a pact for that reason too.

Also, thought of another slogan for everyone #Don't trust Boris.

DGRossetti · 11/09/2019 14:29

If this is the case it seems there's an arguement brewing between Johnson and Cummings. Cummings seems to have wildly over stepped the mark and his authority here, and has tried to directly and deliberately undermine the rule of law.

Worth noting that for some values of law, it is specifically Johnsons balls in the vice, not Cummings. Cummings can afford to be "brave" as it won't be him in court before Johnson.

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2019 14:30

Oooo the Benn tweet looks interesting.

It sounds like the Speaker deferred to government rather than get stuck in the middle and cos it was the governments legal liability,

BUT from what Cath Haddon said above and what Benn has said there does look like there may be an alternative formal way to reopen parliament.

This might put the Queen in the middle again - but she would follow the advice of the Courts I suspect - but won't be terribly happy as this would expose her again

What fun and games.

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colouringinpro · 11/09/2019 14:31

pmk!

DGRossetti · 11/09/2019 14:31

If the Tories entered a pact with the BXP, it could stop Labour voters voting BXP. #VoteBrexitGetTory.

Not as catchy as Smethwick '64 though ....

DGRossetti · 11/09/2019 14:33

This might put the Queen in the middle again - but she would follow the advice of the Courts I suspect - but won't be terribly happy as this would expose her again

I don't give two shits how happy or not she is ...

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2019 14:35

"If the Supreme Court follows the Scottish court and finds that Boris Johnson misled the Queen...

...then he presumably will have to resign."

Well they could just decide he is mistaken,
which leaves it open whether he's dim, careless or deliberately fooled the Monarch into proroguing

My WAG = Wild Arsed Guess: he was lazy and believed Cummings without checking himself

Important:
Did he get advice before proroguing from the Lord Chancellor / The Attorney General / another govt law officer ?
Anyone know ?

If so and he took the advice, they are guilty of a gross error in professional judgement, not his fault

If he either ignored govt legal advice or didn't even ask for it / just took Cummings advice, then he should resign
< but v probably won't >

Apileofballyhoo · 11/09/2019 14:36

I don't give two shits how happy or not she is ...

DGR Grin

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2019 14:36

Worth noting that for some values of law, it is specifically Johnsons balls in the vice, not Cummings. Cummings can afford to be "brave" as it won't be him in court before Johnson.

Absoluetely.

And Johnson, might suddenly be realising this.

We might be looking at this scenario:

They thought they could prorogue in an unlawful manner, discussed it outside government channels thinking they could get away with it (hence why they are refusing to comply with the humble address to turnover this information which is on private emails and whatsapp) - remember the Cabinet Office didn't want to sign a document and expose itself and may have been caught with their pants around their ankles because of this missing statement. Or more precisely, Johnson has - and his nod and wink to the Cabinet to 'trust him' has come back to haunt him because he believed Cummings when he said they could get away with it. Cummings of course is in no way liable and would have known this. Johnson either didn't or thought he could wing it.

Remember Cummings does have form for all this and does think he is above the law... so its in keeping with his style.

Things are going to get very interesting.

The fact the court has ruled that Johnson has abused his power is quite the thing.

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MockersthefeMANist · 11/09/2019 14:37

Locked out MPs having a demo on the pavement now.

DGRossetti · 11/09/2019 14:37

My WAG = Wild Arsed Guess: he was lazy and believed Cummings without checking himself^

Even before the final gruesome line up for Tory leader was announced, everyone that knew Boris said he was spectacularly lazy in his time as London Mayor, and that it would trip him up if he tried that trick as PM.

Two months later ....

BigChocFrenzy · 11/09/2019 14:38

DG I was only in primary school, but being mixed race did hear the (unofficial, wink wink) Tory slogan in that byelection:

"if you want a n@@@er for a neighbour, vote Labour"

I'm sure that was never written (official) election literature but unofficially everyone in the region knew

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2019 14:39

I actually think the whole Cabinet are now up to their necks in it, so have an incentive to track down that advice. Or expose the lack of it.

Buckland could be a very interesting player yet, if he is serious about upholding the rule of law....

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JeSuisPoulet · 11/09/2019 14:39

On CumFace's wiki
The Daily Telegraph reported on Cummings's past rivalry with Nigel Farage from the 2016 referendum campaign, and quoted Farage as saying that: "He has never liked me. He can't stand the ERG. I can't see him coming to any accommodation with anyone. He has huge personal enmity with the true believers in Brexit".[27]
and
At the Nudgestock event in 2017, Cummings said: "For me ... the worst-case scenario for Europe is a return to 1930s-style protectionism and extremism. And to me the EU project, the Eurozone project, are driving the growth of extremism. The single most important reason, really, for why I wanted to get out of the EU is I think that it will drain the poison of a lot of political debates ... UKIP and Nigel Farage would be finished.

DGRossetti · 11/09/2019 14:40

Locked out MPs having a demo on the pavement now.

Hopefully being beamed around the world in scenes reminiscent of Yeltsin-era Russia ? Or any number of South American countries.

Hoooo · 11/09/2019 14:41

Time for Brenda to earn her vadt wealth and priviledge?

RedToothBrush · 11/09/2019 14:41

Cummings said: "For me ... the worst-case scenario for Europe is a return to 1930s-style protectionism and extremism. And to me the EU project, the Eurozone project, are driving the growth of extremism. The single most important reason, really, for why I wanted to get out of the EU is I think that it will drain the poison of a lot of political debates ... UKIP and Nigel Farage would be finished.

If thats what he really thinks, he hasn't half fucked that up.

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