Can someone explain the Irish backstop to me in very simple words?

[Apolloanddaphne]

I am an intelligent woman with multiple degrees but i have to confess i have no idea what the back stop is. I am too scared to ask my DH or my friends lest they think i am an imbecile (lighthearted). I have tried googling it to read articles about it but i just don't get it.

One of my friends is Irish and has a piece in a newspaper today related this today. If it comes up in conversation next time i see him i would at least like to be able to say something semi intelligent about it!

Help me please. Use easy words. Thanks.

OP I consider myself pretty clever and up on current affairs but wasn't clear on the backstop at all so thank you for your post.

And thank you @MindyStClaire and @Apileofballyhoo and others for your very clear replies.

@Labassecour I don't know what you contributed to the thread but maybe you feel better having expelled some bile.

I realised this summer how despite what I considered a pretty good education, I know very little about Anglo-Irish history. Can anyone recommend a good book for me to start with?

Nice educational post, thanks all!

And I didn't know despite my reading that it was the EU that extended the backstop insurance policy safety net to the whole of the UK and not just NI. So I'm now confused as to why people are talking about a NI only backstop being ok or a border in the sea if these have been vetoed by the UK DUP and the EU has already changed their stance on it? We get no say anyway. Sure we can all write to our feckless MPs but mine toes the party line and has stopped replying to my communications. It was a miracle he responded to my first email as he has a reputation for ignoring his constituents. It doesn't matter what Leavers will accept or what remainers will accept as it all depends on what parliament will accept and pass through.

I suppose you are right that terrorism is fundamentally unreasonable by its nature, but this is hardly something in favour of the beliefs of terrorists.

OP I'm glad you asked the question too as I've learned a lot from this thread.

Also very well educated, good understanding of Irish history, etc but although I knew the backstop was about preventing a hard border in Ireland (and that preserving peace/Good Friday agreement is v important) I didn't know how it was supposed to do that.

What do you mean by this @Bercows ?

And I didn't know despite my reading that it was the EU that extended the backstop insurance policy safety net to the whole of the UK and not just NI

The backstop relates to retaining a seamless border on the island of Ireland. One way of doing this is ensuring the whole of the UK enters a single customs territory (with the EU)

Not sure what you meant by 'whole of UK and not just NI'?

I really don't mean this in any snippy or patronising way, honestly.
But, I'm taken aback by the amount of posters saying 'I'm very well educated on politics / history / EU etc' while also saying 'but I didn't understand the backstop'

I'm not saying I'm any great expert - but I can't understand not making an effort to understand? Listening to radio, watching TV, reading papers / online, podcasts. I mean, it's discussed everywhere.

And I don't probably understand lots about it but have passable knowledge and keep reading / listening to find out more?

I am going to have a go at an honest and non-condescending reply to the OP.

A "backstop" is just a fall-back position. It's designed to ensure that there will be no border in Ireland whatever the outcome of future UK-EU trade negotiations.

You need a border where two countries have different rules about the taxes that must be paid on goods that enter their territories, and/or different product and safety standards.

The function of the border is to ensure that taxes get paid and that imported products meet local product and safety standards. It is intended to prevent smuggling (ie, importing banned goods, or importing permitted goods but without paying taxes) and, for example, to prevent consumers from being exposed to unsafe foreign products (like salmonella-infected chicken or contaminated baby milk). It's not possible to do this without some sort of border infrastructure.

There are two reasons why Ireland doesn't want a border. The first is geography - there are hundreds of crossings and there are, for example, Irish villages and farms where the only way in and out is via NI. The second is of course the history of English occupation and the troubles.

The "original" backstop would have kept Northern Ireland in a customs union with the EU while also ensuring that goods that could be sold legally in NI could also be sold legally in Ireland/ the EU - "regulatory alignment".

However this would have led to a border in the Irish sea, which the Unionist politicians (who are popping up the Tory govt) objected to. So the backstop was extended to the whole of the U.K.

People are not having breakdowns over the Norway - Sweden border.

Both Norway and Sweden are in the EEA, which means they apply common standards to goods. This is a far closer relationship than the one that is being proposed between the U.K. and the EU. And even so, there is physical infrastructure at the border.

I was referring to this from Mindy:

*The backstop originally stated that if the future relationship would necessitate a border, or if no agreement was reached, NI would effectively remain in the single market and customs union (think it's legally a bit more complicated than that, but that's the gist) allowing the border to remain open. This would effectively put a border for goods in the Irish sea, between the island of Ireland and GB.

The UK didn't like the idea of a border between NI and GB (namely, the DUP didn't like it) and so the EU made a huge concession and expanded the backstop to include the whole UK.*

If you can read this; not sure how clear it is, but it is a letter of support for the backstop from many Northern Irish politicians - but not the DUP, obviously.

I live in Ireland and there is utter bafflement here that Brexiteers don’t see how the backstop is a fairly big concession by the EU, and that a lot of the British press is portraying Ireland as being difficult and obstructive. Especially as T May believed she could get it over the line, and we don’t really know why it’s being made out that we are the difficult ones.

I’m speaking generally here, but in Ireland we are just shaking our heads in disbelief. It was bemusing for a while, but it’s got a lot worse with Johnson.

As far as I am aware, there's supposed to be little difference between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland - something that is a massive part of the Good Friday Agreement.

When you start to have different standards and different regulations, you introduce differences. If Northern Ireland was in the Customs Union and also had to follow the same regulations for goods as the Republic of Ireland, that would solve that problem. (the backstop)

But then you introduce a difference between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. And some people don't want that.

Actually I think the OP is perfectly reasonable not to understand the backstop. I didn't really fully understand the issues involved until I spent several hours watching a NI select committee meeting at which a customs expert and a trade lawyer gave evidence. It was eye opening. And I have a background in economics and commodities trading!

I think the OP deserves some credit for admitting to not understanding something ... the whole Brexit debate would be very different if more people admitted to not knowing stuff.

@Mindystclaire your first post was very informative, thank you.

Some posters are frustrated because this has been talked about endlessly for a year, and there’s a classic British ‘we prize ourselves on our ignorance’ and ‘no one taught us this at school, so it’s not our fault’ stance going on.

On further reading though it seems to UK wide backstop was a UK suggestion and the rest of the EU agreed to it which is perhaps what Mindy meant and I've misinterpreted.

@NiceWork but the OP is trying to teach herself by asking the question. There's nothing wrong with that. Anglo-Irish history wasn't (isn't?) taught at school in my day (1981-1992) so I've made it my business to teach myself. Some are happy to remain ignorant. Some take the news at face value and have never been taught critical analysis. Others are doing their best to learn and get their heads round this political clusterfuck so they understand what's going on. Our own prime minister doesn't seem to understand or is wilfully and carelessly ignorant so joe public being ill-informed should not be met with ridicule if they are trying to expand their knowledge.

Lizzzar, the the beliefs of terrorists are a bit like the beliefs of politicians.

On 1st November NI will become a smugglers' paradise. There is a misconception that NI terrorists sit on their arses all day coming out every now and then to do a shooting or a bombing. That's wrong, they are always present and active doing other stuff like extortion, drug dealing, pimping and smuggling. They are eagerly awaiting Brexit.

The "bumps in the road" are going to hit this current generation hard. Unless NI gets a massive economic boost from some sort of special status joining a paramilitary gang may become rather attractive.

I have posted the above on previous threads.

It is also important to understand that the current invisible border between NI and ROI is over 300 miles long with over 200 crossing points. There are homes, farms, roads, businesses currently spilt between NI and the ROI and people work, shop and live freely between the two. The GFA means that there are no border posts, no passport checks, no vehicle checks. Those in NI that identify as Irish can do so as can those identifying as British. This is not comparable to any other border and is nothing like Norway - Sweden or France - Switzerland, it is far more complex and any divergence from the GFA will certainly lead to a return to terrible days of the troubles in NI.

Ah, thanks Bercow I understand now.

Mindy's not altogether correct tho ( EU made a huge concession and expanded the backstop to include the whole UK.)

Paragraph 49/50 of the November / December drafts have berg interpreted differently by London & Dublin / EU.

London maintains as Mindy puts it that it's the whole UK aligning, Dublin/EU sees it as a London promise to NI and not an EU obligation

*have been, not berg

Mistigri

I agree, in principle. But I don't think it's reasonable to not understand it, but make no effort to try, through the numerous ways that exist, and just kind of put their hands ho and ask here.

I mean, lots of posters have given good explanations and it's an interesting thread but I am a bit 😳 at this being the first point where someone who wants to know about the situation, looks to do so.

It's covered on all media all the time!

Some people don't watch the news, read the papers or listen to the radio. They aren't on Facebook or twitter and might not venture beyond certain topics on mumsnet and therefore avoid the majority of Brexit talk. I remember nothing of the lead up to the referendum. Nothing except something about a bus. I lived in a bubble that I'd constructed for my mental health. I found the news caused huge anxiety so I avoided it like the plague. I don't do Facebook or twitter and was not on mumsnet at the time. I didn't read the papers and didn't listen to the radio. Im out of the bubble now and making up for lost time with regards to political news.

That's fair enough Bercow and this line

I remember nothing of the lead up to the referendum. Nothing except something about a bus.

Made me 😂

Ireland and Northern Ireland are very integrated. This is one of the basis of peace. The half of the population that want to can just consider themselves Irish.
There are more border crossings between Ireland and Northern Ireland than there are in the whole eastern border of the European Union from the Baltic to the Balkans. The official tally is disputed. Possibly 270 crossings.

There are 11 roads where the border runs down the white line the middle of the road. On the busiest motor way the border runs down the central divide for a distance.

Sometimes on a short journey to work or to school you might cross the border 5 times in a few miles.

A hard border will cause huge disruption. There will be no choice but to enforce the border on these small roads. These are country towns, farming areas and one of the big issues with Brexit will be the change in food and farming regulations.

I remember the roads bombed by the British state to close crossings, I remember the car being searched by customs, I remember the mobile units checking on “unapproved” roads. And I remember the soldiers, the guns and the armored installations that protected all of that. I just can’t believe we are going back to it.

But the Democratic Unionist Party of NI who are propping up the minority Tory government said they don't want there to be any kind of border checks between NI and mainland UK because it's all one country and it wouldn't be right to be treating their part of the UK as different from the rest of the UK.

Unless the issue is abortion or gay marriage. Then the DUP insists that NI should be treated differently to the rest of the UK. Hypocrites the lot of them.

I remember soldiers at the side of the road when going to school. Check points, numerous times being evacuated from shopping centres due to hoax bombs etc. When I got my first job I was given training on how to take a bomb warning phonecall - what to write down and remember for the police statement. Also how to search the products we sold for bombs at the end of the day, and what to do if a bag was left unattended. I'm 31. This is very recent history and my experiences happened at the tail end, and are absolutely nothing compared to what some people suffered.

The arrogance towards NI and ROI is disgusting. But sadly is not actually that shocking in the context of Anglo-Irish history.

Glitterpearl