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Brexit

Can someone explain the Irish backstop to me in very simple words?

493 replies

Apolloanddaphne · 23/08/2019 16:34

I am an intelligent woman with multiple degrees but i have to confess i have no idea what the back stop is. I am too scared to ask my DH or my friends lest they think i am an imbecile (lighthearted). I have tried googling it to read articles about it but i just don't get it.

One of my friends is Irish and has a piece in a newspaper today related this today. If it comes up in conversation next time i see him i would at least like to be able to say something semi intelligent about it!

Help me please. Use easy words. Thanks.

OP posts:
chomalungma · 23/08/2019 19:23

II do not recall giving any thought to Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement before the referendum

I think in the key debate about triggering the referendum that there was 1 mention.

hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2015-06-09/debates/15060939000001/EuropeanUnionReferendumBill

Mark Durkan

"I do believe that the Government would be well advised to change the question. We have seen this week that the Prime Minister is able to have a second take on some issues. Even when he feels that he is restating a position, it seems to be somewhat different. It might be a case of “EU turn if you want to,” with this Conservative leader. The Government should accede to the advice of the Electoral Commission.

When the referendum takes place, we need to recognise that there are many different issues for many different people. I represent a border constituency in Northern Ireland and the implications of the UK leaving the EU would be pretty fundamental, not just for my constituency but for the political institutions in Northern Ireland. The common experience of EU membership provided the very context in which there were changed British and Irish relations, which in turn provided the context for the peace process.

It should be remembered that the institutions of the Good Friday agreement do not take as givens just the human rights provisions of the Human Rights Act and the European convention on human rights, but the common EU membership of the UK and Ireland. Even some of the cross-border institutions that were set up as a result of the Good Friday agreement directly address and reflect our common membership of the EU. Fundamental damage and change may be done when serious questions are raised about our commitment to human rights and to our membership of the EU. If we are facing a referendum, we will have to address those issues and carry forward the arguments responsibly.

We must recognise that people have more questions about the sovereignty of this Parliament than just where it stands vis-à-vis the European institutions. We heard that yesterday in the debate on the Scotland Bill. There are clear tensions and ambiguities around what the notion of parliamentary sovereignty means for this Parliament, and around the implications for devolved institutions and the rightful authority that they should have. Similarly, in terms of what comes out of any EU renegotiation, there will be tensions between this Parliament’s notion of its parliamentary sovereignty and what emerges in the new arrangements and treaty terms.

That is why, in my view, it would have been better to have had something like a constitutional convention before the referendum not only to address the longer-term democratic relations within the UK and create a new democratic charter between this Parliament and the other elected institutions in different parts of the UK, but to create a new democratic charter that clearly creates a delineation between this Parliament and the various EU institutions.

There is a danger that we will end up with a referendum campaign in which the yes side includes people who want to be both half in and half out, and a no side that is also confused because it includes some people who want to be totally out, as well as people who say that if we reject it, we can be half out and renegotiate in the way that Ireland did. The danger is that we will end up with a referendum that does not settle the question at all in the terms in which Members believe it will."

bellinisurge · 23/08/2019 19:24

Please tell me that now you are all finding out what this is (and I agree with pp that it should be called a safety net) , you are now writing to your MPs and telling them how important it is.

implantsandaDyson · 23/08/2019 19:29

Phrases such as safety net and insurance policy (which the backstop is) were deliberately not used publically as it gave the impression that Brexit might be more difficult than people thought or were promised. They're "panicky" words as opposed to vague phrases such as backstop.

bellinisurge · 23/08/2019 19:35

Well they need to start using safety net instead of some obscure cricketing term.

Apolloanddaphne · 23/08/2019 19:36

I think safety net works better and I can Understand what that means.

OP posts:
implantsandaDyson · 23/08/2019 19:43

Well sure I'm sure they'll do exactly what the posters on MN understand. I don't play or follow cricket or rounders so I get what backstop in this context means. I've also heard it enough times to look it up if needs be.

I'm just explaining why in certain depts other phrases weren't used.

ListeningQuietly · 23/08/2019 19:45

I agree that "backstop" was used in a deliberate way to exclude people from working out the shitstorm that was brewing

dementedma · 23/08/2019 19:50

Thank you for that explanation apile. I actually understood that

EugenesAxe · 23/08/2019 20:41

I could be you, OP, in this respect. I theoretically get it but where I fall down is the practical ‘differences’ NI will be subject to compared to the rest of the UK. I don’t know if there still are any TBH or if the current backstop treats us all the same.

My current understanding is that previously, the backstop said GB was free of customs union but NI wasn’t (to maintain free-flow border), and checks on standards would be made on goods going to NI from mainland. DUP objected because it suggests disunity within UK - fair enough (how does EU check compliance with the rules for the countries in the EU currently, anyway?).

Now backstop extends to the whole UK & there would be no checks between NI and mainland GB, but Brexiteers object because it holds us all in customs union.

However the alternative to the latter is the UK not being able to trade with the EU after we leave, isn’t it? Won’t non-EU countries have trade agreements with the EU that essentially recreate the rules we’re subject to under the customs union? To jeopardise the peace because we imagine we’re going to substantially break free from the current rules seems pretty mad. We might as well accept the backstop until such time as we have a new agreement that’s basically the same as the customs union. There’s no point the UK trying to negotiate a get out to the backstop that’s solely under our control, because being ‘free’ means we have no trade with the EU. It’s cutting off the nose etc.

Apileofballyhoo · 23/08/2019 20:52

ListeningQuietly I never won a thread before!

You're welcome dementedma.

how does EU check compliance with the rules for the countries in the EU currently, anyway I wondered this too EugenesAxe and then I thought of things like cars being recalled, food - levels of contaminants tested e.g. my local Aldi had a recall recently on bottled water, food poisoning outbreaks are often traced to a particular lot of food - wasn't there one in northern Europe that was Spanish salad veg or something? So obviously if someone is breaking the rules it gets traced back to point of origin. Even if labels were fake or something it would come through a legitimate source at some point. There was a man imprisoned in Ireland a few years ago for selling Chinese garlic as European.

Lizzzar · 23/08/2019 20:56

People are not having breakdowns over the Norway - Sweden border. It works perfectly well, despite common travel in Scandinavia. The real point here is the history of Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement, not that there couldn't be fairly free travel in Ireland with a basic border(which could be take down if the island of Ireland ever did become one legal country).I find it unreasonable that the IRA would commit terrorist atrocities simply because of a basic border, but that is essentially what is being said.

bellinisurge · 23/08/2019 21:01

"I find it unreasonable that the IRA would commit terrorist atrocities simply because of a basic border, but that is essentially what is being said."

Which is how Faridge shut down discussion of it.

EugenesAxe · 23/08/2019 21:02

Going to read the posts in between to see if they help me. It took me ages to collect my thoughts Hmm

chomalungma · 23/08/2019 21:07

People are not having breakdowns over the Norway - Sweden border

Having just been to Norway from Denmark, I was quite interested in the border.

There were 2 lanes - a Red and a Green channel. There are Customs Allowances and there are things you are and not allowed into Norway. We were checked at the border but nothing too exciting. I am not sure what happened to the lorries

No passport checks - but we are in Schengen,

I've also done the France - Swiss border and seen the infrastructure. It's very annoying when a Brexiteer discusses these borders when you know they most likely haven't experienced them.

Peregrina · 23/08/2019 21:08

People work on one side and live on the other, it'd be like putting an international border and customs post between you and your local Tesco.

These sorts of things happen in history - think of the Berlin Wall, which did exactly that - sliced along or across streets.

but it was one of the reasons I voted Remain
Me too, but it wasn't given enough prominence. Nor should Cameron have even contemplated a Referendum until he could come up with a working solution. But at the time of the Referendum, most people thought that we would go for a Norway + style of option - remain in the Single Market and Customs Union, so it wouldn't be a problem.

Apileofballyhoo · 23/08/2019 21:12

fairly free travel in Ireland

Lizzzar would you consider fairly free travel in your own country to be perfectly acceptable?

Outsomnia · 23/08/2019 21:22

This discussion is frightening for the lack of understanding of things that will totally fk us up.

But there is the internet. Go type it in, and for goodness sake read the results from non UK sources.

But the big problem is FaceAche and the like. Taken as gospel.

MindyStClaire · 23/08/2019 21:25

These sorts of things happen in history - think of the Berlin Wall, which did exactly that - sliced along or across streets.

And happened before in the creation of Northern Ireland. We've only had 20 years of peace. It's galling how many in the UK don't realise there was a 30 year civil war in their own country in their lifetime, and are willing to risk that peace.

I know you know this Peregrina, but so many have no clue.

Outsomnia · 23/08/2019 21:27

The backstop is an insurance policy against the UK reneging, and quite rightly so IMV. They cannot be trusted and everyone knows this.

So the Trade Agreements will be predicated on the UKs honour and honesty?.

I think I shall leave it there.

SistemaAddict · 23/08/2019 21:47

@Apolloanddaphne never be afraid to ask questions in an attempt to gain knowledge! Ignore the rude posters. I've asked lots of questions over the past year. I knew a fair bit about the troubles, I knew that peace was fragile, I didn't really get the back stop and think the name doesn't help. I didn't know why the border was such an issue, I didn't know much at all about the history of Ireland and how the British have fucked with it over the centuries. So I asked a few questions and did a whole load of googling which prompted more questions and more googling. I've learnt a great deal over the past year and still ask questions if I'm not sure of something. The level of political knowledge on the brexit board can be daunting but I ask anyway and don't let those that think they know everything make me feel like an idiot. Three years ago my political knowledge was practically zero but I grew interested and learnt. Not all of us had great schooling, not all of us were taught UK history, not all of us went to school as often as we should have for whatever reason, not all of us were interested in politics until recently or had parents or families that discussed politics as we were growing up. This being the case for me, I took it upon myself to learn and I've spent hours down the Irish history rabbit hole and loved learning about the history and politics. It's fascinating and has given me the background to understand what's happening now and why.

SouthChinaSea234 · 23/08/2019 21:53

fullfact.org/europe/irish-backstop/

darkcloudsandsunnyskies · 23/08/2019 22:00

Surely there must be one remainer who can explain to the OP what the backstop is without insulting her because they don’t actually know.

You could not make this up.

EugenesAxe · 23/08/2019 22:03

The answer is... yes your post apile has answered loads of my Qs. It’s highlighted that I don’t know what the CU and SM actually relate to 🤔

You are right about the recalls and things. And do ISOs have something to do with it? I remember my Dad being chuffed the co. he worked for passed a major one about 20 years ago...

Thinking about the lax non-EU standards that might be upcoming makes me feel polluted, frankly. The world is going to shite and standards are getting lowered? FFS

Bodear · 23/08/2019 22:05

OP, I live in Ireland and I didn’t get it so don’t pay attention to the people upthread who’ve clearly just had a bad week.

@MindyStClaire thank you!!!!

DioneTheDiabolist · 23/08/2019 22:20

I find it unreasonable that the IRA would commit terrorist atrocities simply because of a basic border, but that is essentially what is being said.

Really Lizzzar?Shock Paramilitaries aren't exactly known for their reasonableness.Hmm