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Brexit

Westminstenders: 30 days to save us all!

970 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/08/2019 00:28

It's quite remarkable to watch the British press atm.

It's like it doesn't understand English. Well only if its English spoken by foreigners.

Merkel made the observation that the UK had spent two years looking at the Irish border but had failed to come up with a workable solution, and now Johnson has waltzed in and made statements about how the backstop must go, and only has 30 days in which this can be achieved.

The British press writes this up as Merkel giving the UK a deadline to come up with a new solution.

Which is nonsense. The UK have a deadline to save itself, from itself and that's 31st October. This is a self imposed deadline.

Meanwhile comes out with the Brexiteer smack down that he didn't think the UK wS leaving the EU to regain its sovereignty only to become a vassalage or junior partner to the US.

Both these ideas being the result of leaving the EU have long been key issues. From before the ref. Both have been the UK's to solve in order to get the terms the UK wants from a deal.

The referendum was about choosing to align with the EU or to ditch that and rights and align closely with the US. Then Trump happened and the sell on this got harder, but still essentially the same. And it continues.

And then there was the Irish border. The magic solution to Brexit that doesn't break the GFA. I personally think there isn't one as long as the DUP have their red lines about the Irish sea.

So here we are. More than 3 years after the ref.

Leavers still have no plan. Apart for charge headlong over the cliff. Remains still have their heads wedged up their own backsides and also, after spending months criticising every one else on social media anyway who makes a stand again this bull shit.

Yet the newspapers fail to report what Merkel said or why the UK has this issue in the first place. Its an ongoing exercise in national delusion and self denial.

OP posts:
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Grinchly · 27/08/2019 19:57

Ahh sorry, maybe you were referring to parliamentarians. Fair en ought !

Grinchly · 27/08/2019 19:58

Enough
Yes of course * they are woman*
Blush
That was quite an... instructive leap of mine actually wasn't it. Blush

tobee · 27/08/2019 19:59

Thanks Grinchly

I ask coz that sort of thinking it the sort of way I think; but that's sort of a self protective thing to say to myself "I need to think of the very worst outcome, then I won't be surprised/horrified and anything less bad is a bonus".

Sorry badly worded but hope that makes sense. I suppose I'm being superstitious!!

BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2019 20:02

Neger mind coffee. where do I get a cuppa - Purgatory ?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2019 20:09

Never mind coffee. where do I get a cuppa - Purgatory ?

prettybird · 27/08/2019 20:15

Glad I'm not alone Grinchly Blush

I've met Nicola Sturgeon on numerous occasions and she is always lovely and down to earth. Alex Salmon could was come across as a bit arrogant (and my own criticism of Nicola is that she picked up a few of his potentially irritating mannerisms after all the years of working for him: semi-laughing when explaining a too obvious point for example). You always feel that she is genuinely interested in you and remembers who you are Smile.

Dh met Blair on a number of occasions for work and said that he always seemed to be looking over his shoulder to see if there is someone more important to talk to - while also getting the names wrong of the people he was there to talk to/about and taking credit for the projects that they had worked on and he was there to take credit for announce. He said that Donald Dewar May he rest in peace was much more genuine - and was always quick to pass the credit to where it was due.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2019 20:17

""Mumsnet Posse for the Prevention of Brexit" " 😂

I visualise us something like this:

Westminstenders: 30 days to save us all!
Jason118 · 27/08/2019 20:19

I'm sorry, I don't have the hair or physical attributes Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2019 20:20

"allowing teachers to use “reasonable force” to improve behaviour"

Oh, then we are having a GE

Petting the authoritarians

QueenOfThorns · 27/08/2019 20:22

I wish I was that young!

tobee · 27/08/2019 20:27

Yes, uncanny, BCF, I look exactly like that.

Smile
Hoooo · 27/08/2019 20:29

Yeah.
GE here we come...
Money for the nhs and education (?)
Tax cuts for the rich
Capital punishment
Corporal punishment
We all know which sector of the electorate these ^ particular promises are designed to court...
And they will fall for it.
All of it.

Hoooo · 27/08/2019 20:30

Eww...
Does it havd to be Brown??

cherin · 27/08/2019 20:32

I don’t have any doubt we’re heading towards a GE, what I don’t know is when....but we have only a week or so before it gets frothy again, in the HoC. Yesterday Katya Adler was reporting on the G7...holidays almost over?

(Lisette, thanks, I’ll consider Aberdeen then. Ill plan how to get there with my 50kgs of pasta and tinned tomatoes :-) I could also try to smuggle tins of real olive oil...)
(What’s the WTO tax if we crash out? I think 30% on olive oil. Bummer- the new production is typically in November)

DarkAtEndOfUK · 27/08/2019 20:37

It can't be before Oct 31st. Just after is the optimal period, before the shit really kicks in.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2019 20:40

Lewis Goodall@lewis_goodall

I went to two major political events today.

Both sides were accusing the other of orchestrating coups.

Both sides meant it.

We are in extremely dangerous territory.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/08/2019 20:43

BJ probably wants a GE in early November (after No Deal)

Question is whether Corbyn will agree - under FTPA, it needs ⅔ of the HoC to vote for an early GE

prettybird · 27/08/2019 20:44

I've offered lodgings and a refugee camp in Glasgow in the past for those that want to get onto the Electoral Register in Scotland for a future Indyref2 Grin

Obviously votes are secret but I would hope that those taking up the offer would be voting Yes Wink (And are EU supporters of course Grin)

Lisette1940 · 27/08/2019 20:45

cherin 😄 You'll need Vitamin D supplements too.

cherin · 27/08/2019 20:50

Nah, I believe in global warming, which will be accelerated by the marvellous progress of the —English— Sunny Uplands economy post brexit.
If one can dream of Oranges in the Midlands, I can dream of ripening tomatoes in Aberdeen :-))

DarkAtEndOfUK · 27/08/2019 20:51

We are in extremely dangerous territory.

Yep. The rot started at the top. The divisions are now embedded at the top.

cherin · 27/08/2019 20:53

English was meant to be deleted ;-)
(There was a joke on another thread about bringing back production of...Chocolate oranges? I think that was it...to Yorkshire....)
(All legitimate aspirations. If only oranges were ever grown in Yorkshire ;-)

DGRossetti · 27/08/2019 20:54

sputniknews.com/amp/columnists/201908271076653533-brexit-general-election-now-inevitable-johnson-must-be-removed/

sputniknews.com
Brexit General Election Now Inevitable – Johnson Must Be Removed
Sputnik
9-11 minutes

Having never lived through a world war and the enormous uncertainties, surprises and instability such events inevitably bring in their wake I would have to suggest the current political situation in the UK is the most uncertain and unstable in my lifetime.

The whole Brexit issue has challenged the hitherto comfortable political hegemony and status quo by pitching certain parts of the privileged elites who make up the British Establishment against each other. Make no mistake about it, being pro or anti-Brexit is not a class question in the sense that support for or against a strike of organised workers or being for or against public ownership of essential utilities poses the challenge. The ruling Establishment invariably opposes industrial actions and despises public ownership but Brexit is more complex.

Some in the ruling elites believe the interests of the British Union are best served continuing to remain part of the tariff-free European Union despite the increased loss of political sovereignty demanded by the political superstructure which has emerged to debate, decide and administer the myriad of trading rules, agreements and regulations which bind the EU together.

To those in privileged positions of wealth and power they perceive no threat to their personal empires from the EU. Despite decades of membership the UK still remains one of the most poverty-stricken and unequal in the 28 member club. Pensions are amongst the lowest, working conditions in relation to average hours worked, paid holidays and trade union rights are amongst the worst and minimum wage protection is at the bottom end of the scale.

Being in the EU has not protected shipyard jobs on Clydeside or Tyneside and whole industrial sectors of manufacturing like steel and engineering have been decimated within the UK despite EU membership.

© AP Photo/ Frank Augstein

People demonstrate against Brexit on a balcony in London, Wednesday, Feb. 14, 2018, as Britain's Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson delivers a speech focusing on Britain leaving the EU. The Foreign Office says Johnson will use a speech Wednesday to argue for "an outward-facing, liberal and global Britain" after the U.K. leaves the bloc

On the other hand, it is short-sighted and ‘protect the rich at all costs’ policies of successive Tory and New Labour governments which are to blame for shameful poverty levels and deindustrialisation of vast areas of the UK, not the EU membership. It is not EU policy to cut direct income taxes for the rich while increasing the indirect income tax burden for the poor with taxes like VAT.

It was the Thatcher/Major/Blair/Brown/Cameron and May Governments that imposed savage reductions on welfare to prioritise warfare and reduce taxation of big business profits to among the lowest in the EU, paving the way for reduced budgets for public services like health, education and justice.

Some in the higher echelons of the ruling classes believe there is more to be usurped by ditching the EU and its regulations and seeking to build new arrangements with the likes of the US and Trump, as any new free trade deals with them can be guaranteed to favour the bosses over the workers and thus improve profit margins. Although the rich are doing very well under the EU, some are so greedy they think they can do even better outside the EU.

The Jacob Rees-Moggs and Nigel Farages of the world couldn’t give a damn about poverty levels, wealth inequalities and economic justice. Their pursuit of No-Deal Brexit is firmly based on a vision of reduced regulations and restrictions on their ability to make more money. They are for big business first, last and always. They are no friends of the working class.

Some in the progressive trade union movement see Brexit as a fundamental threat to jobs and economic security for workers. They fear removing current regulations and protections will drive wages down and unemployment up.

Others within the trade union movement subscribe to an opposite view. They see the EU regulations as big business-friendly and the worker protections as largely illusory. They advocate leaving the EU and building a workers’ Europe based on social solidarity and greater emphasis on domestic policies designed to deliver wealth and power redistribution.

The question of Brexit is not black and white, simple or straightforward. Sure, many support it from a narrow anti-immigration and British chauvinistic point of view but others support Brexit while opposing racism and supporting socialist policies.

The Lib-Dem austerity, tuition fees, Trident, Bedroom Tax and Fracking supporting junkies oppose Brexit while the parties of the left generally, including the Communist Party of Britain, support Brexit. So it is wrong to define someone as progressive or reactionary based on their support or opposition to Brexit.

There are progressives and reactionaries on both sides of the argument. I’m as far removed on the political scale from Nigel Fraudage as it is possible to be but support Brexit. Most opponents of Brexit likewise wouldn’t want to be politically pigeon-holed with the likes of Tony Blair.

What is less contentious to me than the Brexit issue is the debate around democracy and what should happen now.

A narrow majority in England and Wales endorsed Brexit in 2016. More significant majorities rejected it in Scotland and Northern Ireland. It was only a consultative referendum but an important democratic exercise. It engaged many hitherto disengaged from the political process. However, democracy has to be viewed as a living and breathing organism not an inanimate object used once every so often before being hidden again in a cupboard.

© AP Photo/ Niall Carson

Anti-Brexit billboards are seen on the northern side of the border between Newry, in Northern Ireland, and Dundalk, in the Republic of Ireland, on Wednesday, July 18, 2018.

Evidence since 2016 exposes the reality that the Brexit side not only misled the electorate with dishonest statements, an unfortunate reality of most elections, but they actually broke the law in relation to funding and perhaps misuse of data. That is a serious situation.

In addition, there is a reasonable argument to suggest that many who supported Brexit did so on the assumption that it would be delivered via an orderly withdrawal agreement. Had they been presented with the prospect of a No-Deal Brexit and the inevitable uncertainties around jobs, trade and travel arrangements their decision may have been different. Although millions who voted Labour and Tory in 2017 endorsed manifesto commitments to Brexit both of those party commitments were to Brexit negotiated deals not to a No-Deal scenario. What is now on the agenda is clearly a No-Deal Brexit.

Boris Johnson and his talk of proroguing Parliament is undemocratic to the core. From a man elected Prime Minister with less than 100,000 votes, which is less than two percent of the registered UK voting population, it is the equivalent of being lectured on honesty by Tony Blair. He has no democratic legitimacy or credibility to govern the UK, full stop, but his right to pursue a No-Deal Brexit on behalf of the UK as a whole is even more non-existent.

The correct course of action now in the context of a Parliamentary Democracy is the urgent convening of a General Election. Jeremy Corbyn in this context is absolutely correct to pursue a vote of no confidence to remove Johnson from office. If Johnson won’t allow a General Election before October 31st he has to go. Corbyn should be installed as a strictly time-limited PM with only two tasks. To secure an extension of the EU withdrawal deadline and the calling of a General Election to decide whether a No-Deal Brexit really does command majority support in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Such an election does not undermine democracy or the democratic decision of the 2016 referendum it enhances democracy by allowing the people to decide on a major issue with greater clarity and knowledge now available. Knowledge is power. A more informed decision can now be taken by ordinary people. That surely is the very essence of democracy.

Should Johnson succeed in the literal subverting of democracy by closing down Parliament to allow No-Deal Brexit to proceed by default the SNP has to respond to that emergency situation with a 31st October independence poll to allow us to withdraw from the unequal union which has become even more of a democratic farce than ever!

Should an October General Election be called, more likely in my opinion, the SNP must include a cast-iron commitment to independence in their manifesto stating clearly that securing a majority of the 59 Westminster seats up for grabs is an endorsement to arrange IndyRef2 not enter into further talks about holding one. A date for IndyRef2 no later than Autumn 2020 has to be a key plank of the SNP Manifesto or they will risk deflating many independence supporters and losing hundreds of thousands of potential voters.

The next few weeks are going to be anything but dull. Uncertain, unstable and probably unprecedented but not dull.

The views and opinions expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of Sputnik.

Lizzzar · 27/08/2019 21:02

This thread does come close to implying that much of the population that be assumed to have a low IQ because they don't agree with Mumsnet. This is a highly questionable assumption, and even if you feel that IQ tests are valid, they imply a bellcurve, with most of the population in the average range, and extremes of ability and lack of ability being fairly rare. They do not imply that half of the population are stupid.

flouncyfanny · 27/08/2019 21:07

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