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Brexit

Westminstenders: 30 days to save us all!

970 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/08/2019 00:28

It's quite remarkable to watch the British press atm.

It's like it doesn't understand English. Well only if its English spoken by foreigners.

Merkel made the observation that the UK had spent two years looking at the Irish border but had failed to come up with a workable solution, and now Johnson has waltzed in and made statements about how the backstop must go, and only has 30 days in which this can be achieved.

The British press writes this up as Merkel giving the UK a deadline to come up with a new solution.

Which is nonsense. The UK have a deadline to save itself, from itself and that's 31st October. This is a self imposed deadline.

Meanwhile comes out with the Brexiteer smack down that he didn't think the UK wS leaving the EU to regain its sovereignty only to become a vassalage or junior partner to the US.

Both these ideas being the result of leaving the EU have long been key issues. From before the ref. Both have been the UK's to solve in order to get the terms the UK wants from a deal.

The referendum was about choosing to align with the EU or to ditch that and rights and align closely with the US. Then Trump happened and the sell on this got harder, but still essentially the same. And it continues.

And then there was the Irish border. The magic solution to Brexit that doesn't break the GFA. I personally think there isn't one as long as the DUP have their red lines about the Irish sea.

So here we are. More than 3 years after the ref.

Leavers still have no plan. Apart for charge headlong over the cliff. Remains still have their heads wedged up their own backsides and also, after spending months criticising every one else on social media anyway who makes a stand again this bull shit.

Yet the newspapers fail to report what Merkel said or why the UK has this issue in the first place. Its an ongoing exercise in national delusion and self denial.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
52
woman19 · 25/08/2019 10:01

At what point does seeking to breach EU borders become an act of war?

Dongdingdong · 25/08/2019 10:11

The UKs relations with the EU could rapidly go down hill, any EU citizen here, should head home.

Smh. Are you actually for real? No they bloody well shouldn’t!

woodpigeons · 25/08/2019 10:38

Do you think there will be power cuts after Brexit ?
I have lived without power and even running water in Africa but realise how vulnerable we would be here as we are totally dependent on gas and electricity. I wasn’t really so concerned last time as March meant lighter evenings and warmer weather would be arriving.
We have 2 barbecues, gas and charcoal, 1 wind up lantern and 1 wind up torch. One chimney which is partly blocked, no grate so just a hole in the wall.
I was thinking of buying a gas room heater and gas lights but DH thinks I am being a bit ridiculous. He says we can cook on the barbecue if necessary and move around to keep warm. I have visions of cooking on the barbecue in the dark while running around the garden to keep warm.
Maybe I am but looking again on Amazon/eBay there seem to be far fewer heaters and lamps for sale so it seems I’m not the only one thinking that way.
I would really, really appreciate opinions from the informed people on this group.

Dongdingdong · 25/08/2019 10:43

Maybe I am but looking again on Amazon/eBay there seem to be far fewer heaters and lamps for sale so it seems I’m not the only one thinking that way.

Er, that might be something to do with the fact that it’s the middle of summer. You try flogging heaters and lamps when it’s 31C outside and see how much take-up you get Hmm

IrenetheQuaint · 25/08/2019 10:48

I think power should be fine for most of the UK - I know there were some potential issues for N Ireland in a no-deal situation as they buy a lot of electricity from RoI, but this may have been sorted now.

Of course, always sensible to have a back-up option in case of outages for whatever reason, but I'd be surprised if gas and electricity went down simultaneously.

DGRossetti · 25/08/2019 10:54

Not quite sure why this tickled me - or why it made me think of Brexit ...

Westminstenders: 30 days to save us all!
DGRossetti · 25/08/2019 10:58

Also, following recent discussion(s)

thenotification.co.uk/monolingual-island-and-the-b-word/

thenotification.co.uk
Monolingual island and the “B word”
Madelaine Pitt
8-10 minutes

Everyone speaks English, don’t they? Isn’t it the third most common mother tongue and most frequently-learnt second language in the world, and anyway isn’t it the de facto international language of business, tourism, music and academia? And how are a Swede and Slovak meant to communicate otherwise, without resorting to mime or the questionable suggestions of Google Translate?

Comparing broad Glaswegian, Aussie drawl and Canadian lilt shows us the incredible diversity and geographical spread of our language, arguably the most useful mother tongue on the planet. However, the Anglophone phenomenon comes with its own bear traps. 61% of British people can’t speak a single other language. We thus receive the dubious award for the most monolingual country in Europe.
To learn a language is to learn a culture

There’s something very British about the way we consistently overestimate the importance of our own language (only 38% of EU citizens outside the UK and Ireland know enough English to have a conversation, and 6 of the world’s 7.5 billion people speak no English at all) and find excuses not to learn anyone else’s.
According to Google search results, French speakers think “learning a language is like living again”. As for English speakers…

We have an unfortunate tendency to reduce language to its functional value of bare bones communication: if person A from country B learns our word for C, we’re good. We persistently neglect that language is also intrinsically tied up with culture, identity and personality.

“A different language is a different vision of life”, quipped the Italian film director Federico Fellini. Speaking only the language handed down to us by our parents means we miss a whole dimension of the human experience, and the pleasure of authentically discovering another layer of the cultural richness of our world.

It’s one of the reasons the Erasmus scheme is such a wonderful project. Improved language skills, for me, come a distant third behind cultural understanding and international friendships in terms of the benefits of the scheme.
Place des Terreaux in Lyon, France. Photo: Lucas Gallone / Unsplash.

When I came back from my year in Lyon (with a terrible suntan, several extra kilos, and reluctance), I had learnt the words for bottle-opener, ski lift and puncture. Without meaning to, I had also had a glimpse beyond the stereotypes of wine and shrugging; a glimpse of the differences in attitude to the work-life balance, perception of the role of the state, and emphasis on enjoying today rather than anticipating tomorrow.

These deep cultural differences are linked to and expressed in the structure, vocabulary, idioms and intonation of the language, and are untranslatable.
Fear of failure

Is a lack of motivation the only factor holding us back? Enticed by the offer of a cheese and wine evening, as well as speaking a little of the language I miss hearing all around me, I recently headed along to a French society event at my university and got chatting to an English lit student, who was stupefied that I could converse with the few French students present.
Photo: Madelaine Pitt. All rights reserved.

“I’d so love to be able to speak French!” she said enthusiastically. Someone mentioned that there were free classes at the university that she could take as an optional module. “I know, but I’d get such bad marks, it would bring my average right down.”

It was my turn to be stupefied. In university environments where classes of all levels are so often offered for free, it is the fear of failure which is a deterrent. I don’t by any stretch claim to have perfectly mastered the languages I’ve tried to learn, but among Brits, I have noticed this curious conviction that acquiring a conversational level in a foreign language is simply not possible, or else so difficult that the chance of success is a dim, scarcely visible glimmer on the horizon. Fluency is like a magic trick, an appealing result after a mystifying process.
“¡Tres cervezas, por favor!” (Photo: Ben Sutherland / Flickr)

It’s true that scrambling around for an impossible-seeming pronunciation or a but-I-only-learnt-it-yesterday conjugation requires a willingness to be vulnerable. Sticking to good old English (probably raising our voice, just to make sure we’re understood) shields us from failure but also from the thrill of occasionally, eventually, getting it right.

But it also makes it much harder to recognise the effort made when someone learns to speak it, and more fundamentally, to learn to communicate across cultures and put ourselves in others’ shoes.
Delusion of national greatness

Monolingualism is also an outward sign of our delusion of exaggerated national greatness and reinforces a feeling that the world should come to us. Speaking our own language wherever we go and expecting others to learn it gives us the upper hand, and only adds to our very British superiority complex.
Photo: Arkangel / Flickr

Nowhere is this complex better represented than the Brexit debate. “Believe in Britain! The EU will come crawling!” was the main “argument” shouted at me while I was, undoubtedly very annoyingly, shoving leaflets into hands in York city centre last winter. The claim hardly speaks of a humble acknowledgement of cultural tolerance, understanding and mutual respect.

I’m not aware of any statistics linking language learning to the Remain vote, but I would bet my degree on the correlation being a strong one.

At a French conversation evening I drifted along to at a pub in town, the inevitable topic surfaced, but, as if to avoid swearing, the term “the B word” was employed. The ironic phrasing might have produced a few minimal, rueful smiles of acknowledgement (it made me think of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named in Harry Potter), but it was enough to provoke a minute of awkward, stony silence.
Photo: Gordon Joly / Flickr

Then someone changed the subject, and with relief everyone moved on. I looked around the table of people grappling with various levels of French, some more, some less advanced than my own, and felt no doubt that they had all voted “Remain”.
If we learned more languages, we’d be more pro-European

Had these people learnt French because they were searching for this “different vision of life”, or at least seeking to understand a foreign culture? Or did the process of engaging in language learning help them become more open to the world? It’s a mutually reinforcing spiral.

Learning a language pushes us to build relationships with people who speak that language, outside of our own borders. At the same time, mastering a foreign language facilitates and fosters these relationships. I truly believe that, were more of us to be willing to shoulder the vulnerability of learning a foreign language, increased cultural awareness would have stemmed the flow of Britain’s turbulent history of Euroscepticism.

Were more of us to be willing to shoulder the vulnerability of learning a foreign language, increased cultural awareness would have stemmed the flow of Britain’s turbulent history of Euroscepticism. 

I am saddened by the idea that, should Brexit finally occur, there will be even less interest in language learning – fewer visions of life, fewer international friends, less cross-cultural understanding – and that people will more than ever be more focussed on, and limited to, our monolingual island.

The usefulness of being a native English speaker is undeniable. Being able to (probably) get by in our first language in Vienna, Venice and Vilnius is pretty great. But we should recognise that this is a privilege that leads us to put on linguistic and cultural blinkers. Without these, we might feel closer to our European neighbours, in spite of the ocean between us.

cherin · 25/08/2019 11:12

Learning a language is also learning its history, it’s recognising a pattern with Latin, an influence of French, a Slavic root, it’s getting a much better understanding of why a welsh can feel different, it’s the whole bag- not just the functional communication

cherin · 25/08/2019 11:14

My suspicion, though, is that what holds British back when it comes to learning languages is the fear of the ridicolus. You have an ingrained terror of “looking ridiculous” or “making a scene”. You wouldn’t, trust me!!

orangeshoebox · 25/08/2019 11:22

...and looking at the secondary school threads on here. with the outcry that mfl is forced upon dc.

Socksontheradiator · 25/08/2019 11:30

I got the impression that @jasjas was meaning that given the chance, EU citizens might be wise to go 'home' given potential difficulties here.
I think if I was from a different eu country, and had not put down roots here, I would certainly go back.
My eldest DD is living in an EU city, and has been for 5 years. I hope she can stay put there, and safely. Her partner is from a different EU country. They work with a lovely mix of people of all nationalities and I am so sad that Britain is set to pull out of it.
And fwiw, we are not wealthy. She and a friend took off travelling with a rucksack and a few pounds they'd saved. Ended up meeting a old friend who offered her a job at his place of work. She fell in love with the city and it's people, and stayed.

Halfeatentoast · 25/08/2019 12:12

We learn other languages far too late which doesn't help. Starting in secondary school (unless you're rich enough to send your kids to classes at an earlier age) is ridiculously late. Also countries abroad (like Holland) often have English /American/Australian programmes and films shown on tv and in cinemas with subtitles. That also makes it easier to learn English. You'd learn it almost by accident. I just think there is less opportunity in England if you're parents and family are English to naturally absorb or practise another language. It's something that needs to be actively sought out here. Having said that technology is helping create new, free, ways to learn (such as podcasts and apps) so hopefully this will change.

What some people don't seem to realise though is that, yes lots of countries speak English- but I seem to find they do it with an American accent. I find this quite interesting. If it true about language helping you learn a culture (which I think is probably right) I think other countries learning English as a second language are learning American English (and culture), not English/British. Maybe this accounts for a sense of feeling overlooked/misunderstood in Britain now. Bit of a leap maybe, I'm just thinking out loud.

DGRossetti · 25/08/2019 12:12

My suspicion, though, is that what holds British back when it comes to learning languages is the fear of the ridicolus.

In defence of the British, we're a **ing island. We don't have that louche privilege of being able to nip effortlessly across a border for a day trip to a foreign country. Although the spectacular inability of English march-dwellers to even try one word of Welsh is robust rebuttal to that argument.

Myriade · 25/08/2019 12:17

As an EU citizen, the’go home’ comments have two meanings
1- yes going home IS part of my contingency plans if things go per shape. My threshold fir that is probably high because of my two teens dcs. But plans are in place if I feel I need to dash out. I would imagine most EU citizens have done similar tbh
2- the nasty version of ‘Go back home’ (alongside many politicians comments) is the reason why the UK is where i live but not home anymore, even though ive lived here 20 years and I’ve somehow acquired some Britishness. That means that I will probably move back to my home country once dcs are at Uni and independent enough.

I know some Eu citizens have reacted differently, by getting British citizenship with the full intention of staying ‘in their country’. Others have decided to ‘go back home’ already and have moved.
But I have to say when you are at the point where you question sending your dcs to school as you wonder for their safety, you’ve past the point of no return (at least for me)

DGRossetti · 25/08/2019 12:18

We learn other languages far too late which doesn't help.

Many years ago - 20, 30 ? I read of an initiative/experiment ... it may have been Reading/Berkshire. But primary schools really hothoused pupils to learn French, Spanish, German, and Russian (which suggests it may have been post 1989 ?). It had zero effect on the kids attainment in other subjects, but had to be abandoned when parents expressed unease that the kids were happily chatting to each other in languages without the parents being able to understand.

Which suggests there's maybe a psychological dimension to the English attitude to languages ? An intertwined victim mentality coupled with deep seated insecurity and paranoia ?

Would some posters on here will echo my observations that being able to speak another language can evoke some interesting reactions from co workers ?

DGRossetti · 25/08/2019 12:26

Just leave this here.

Is it just me, or have the Leavers gone very quiet of late ?

Westminstenders: 30 days to save us all!
Myriade · 25/08/2019 12:28

Te languages, a lot if people only start learning English in secondary. That doesnt stop them from learning.
I learnt 3 languages at school. English st the start of secondary, spanish starting inY9 and German at Uni (my engineering course was in french, English and German).
I could speak English and Spanish at the end of secondary. And my German was good enough after 3 years to make myself understood.
Most people did the same ad have learnt at least one foreign language (many then forget because if you don’t use that language, you do forget it! Inclyour iwnmorher tongue)

It’s not an issue with not starting early enough. It’s issue with will and feeling it’s an important thing to do.

Socksontheradiator · 25/08/2019 12:29

That's terrifying DGR!

DGRossetti · 25/08/2019 12:34

It’s not an issue with not starting early enough. It’s issue with will and feeling it’s an important thing to do.

Practice helps ...

cherin · 25/08/2019 12:35

DGR half of my company is made of Europeans (with a strong dominance of Italians, not by design) and our colleagues are used to hear us drift between languages, more often than not multiple ones, or debating which one has a more complex grammar etc
They seem to be resigned :-) but not bedgruging it! It is central London, though
State schools of DC start in y3, with a choice between French or Spanish. And mandarin in y8...neither go to private, it’s local state schools. The problem is they do too few hours/week to learn, IMO

Socksontheradiator · 25/08/2019 12:35

Agreed about language. I am learning a second language via an online course. Been going 3 weeks and could hold a very basic conversation.
DD had a bit of schoolgirl French five years ago. Is now fluent in the local language, and has a smattering of several other languages including Ukrainian. As they have such a variety of languages spoken where they work, they've also developed a kind of universal language of their own, which sounds fascinating. She has said that if they have a child it will be brought up speaking at least 3 languages.

DGRossetti · 25/08/2019 12:50

^DGR half of my company is made of Europeans (with a strong dominance of Italians, not by design) and our colleagues are used to hear us drift between languages, more often than not multiple ones, or debating which one has a more complex grammar etc
They seem to be resigned :-) but not bedgruging it! It is central London, though^

DS works with loads of Italians and is getting better than me (we return to practice ...) - and he's sharing a house with an Italian lad. This is Birmingham.

Move a few miles to Redditch, or Studley, and any hint of a foreign language is viewed with deep suspicion. When I was working in Redditch, a colleague (whose point of pride was that at age 35 he has never been to London) used to complain about "hearing Polish" walking to the shops. When I casually suggested it wasn't impossible to maybe pick a word or two up he went full-UKIP, and reminded me in words of few syllables that I wasn't really English anyway.

He really hated it when we has some developers who happened to be Indian working for us. Especially as I used the opportunity to pick up a little more Hindi and got some top travel tips if I ever wanted to go to Darjeeling (where my DGF was born).

If the xenophobia gets too bad, it could signal the end of the casino industry - certainly in Birmingham. That Chinese loot has to go somewhere.

Mind you, if we ever legalised drugs, the same might happen ...

FMFL · 25/08/2019 12:50

DGR that’s made me feel sick with worry. Just seen bbc interview with BJ in which he says getting a deal is now touch and go...we are f*cked.

Halfeatentoast · 25/08/2019 12:54

Interesting DGR
And yes practice!

Yrs cherin I agree it's too few.

Myriade · 25/08/2019 12:59

Of course practice is needed but do you really think people abroad have more chances to practice than Brits do??