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Brexit

Westminstenders: Charge!!!!

999 replies

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2019 16:15

Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
“Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns!” he said.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

“Forward, the Light Brigade!”
Was there a man dismayed?
Not though the soldier knew
Someone had blundered.
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die.
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flashed all their sabres bare,
Flashed as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army, while
All the world wondered.
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right through the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reeled from the sabre stroke
Shattered and sundered.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volleyed and thundered;
Stormed at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell.
They that had fought so well
Came through the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wondered.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Violetparis · 17/08/2019 12:44

wheresmymojo I agree with all the points you have made.

prettybird · 17/08/2019 12:46

There's a couple of important words missing from the new version of his Downing Street speech

Boris Johnson appears to have edited footage of his first speech as Prime Minister - removing a reference to his first 'broken promise'.

The PM said the new video was his "vision for Britain", but the footage has been doctored to remove two important words [which were "this week"] from his NHS funding pledge.

We really are entering the dystopian world of Orwell's 1984 - just 35 years late Sad - with its Ministry of Truth doctoring changing historical records Hmm

CendrillonSings · 17/08/2019 12:46

One thing I haven’t seen discussed much on here is that a GNU doesn’t just mean almost unanimous acceptance of JC amongst anti-Brexit MPs, which is challenging enough ... it also involves their support of an entire Government and Cabinet apparatus.

Who will be Chancellor and Home Secretary? McDonnell and Abbott? What instructions will Corbyn give concerning our nuclear defence posture, as all PMs are required to do on Day 1?

“Putting Corbyn in for a few weeks” is much, much more difficult than some on here have estimated.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2019 12:47

Because international treaties are - what? The word of God? They’re just as subject to democracy as any other aspect of public policy.

Only the people of Northern Ireland will decide the future of NI. They supported the GFA. They support EU membership. Thats democracy. Nobody elese should be riding roughshod over these things.

DGRossetti · 17/08/2019 12:52

Because international treaties are - what? The word of God? They’re just as subject to democracy as any other aspect of public policy.

Tell that to the Swiss ....

CendrillonSings · 17/08/2019 12:55

Only the people of Northern Ireland will decide the future of NI. They supported the GFA. They support EU membership. Thats democracy. Nobody elese should be riding roughshod over these things.

And that argument will become valid if and when NI becomes a sovereign nation, rather than a constituent part of the UK as they are now. Until then, the aggregate wishes of the whole UK take precedence.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 17/08/2019 12:57

Until then, the aggregate wishes of the whole UK take precedence.

Only if the UK wishes to ignore the international peace treaty they are co signatory of. This incovienance isn't going to go away.

Peregrina · 17/08/2019 13:05

Who will be Chancellor and Home Secretary? McDonnell and Abbott?

It would have to be a cross party coalition, as the war time one was - where Churchill strutted about on the international stage and Attlee as Deputy did much of the day to day Government business.

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 13:06

frankenstein

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've read the manifesto.

I don't think it's unfair for people who voted for the Conservatives to believe that "but we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal" means that we would leave with no deal if we didn't get a deal that was deemed to be acceptable to the UK.

This was repeated by TM again and again and again. It was a very well known part of the Policy.

In fact this is what legitimised 'no deal' - having not been discussed in the 2016 referendum. This part of the manifesto repeated none stop is what brought 'no deal' into the mainstream as an option we (the UK) would consider.

We now know that TM didn't actually believe this statement, that half of her Cabinet didn't and a fair few of her MPs.

So she should never have made it and never accepted it in her manifesto.

But she did and it did. And on that basis I don't think it can argued that it can be interpreted any other way. It's a pretty clear statement on THE main issue of the election.

I think it's only reasonable that those who voted Conservative are allowed to take this as Govt policy.

The Tory MPs who are objecting to no deal knew this was in the manifesto and knew that TM was repeating this ad infinitum. Clearly their thought process was '...but we don't really mean it'.

I can't agree with MPs standing on a manifesto on the assumption that a significant point of it is something they're saying to the voters but will vote against unless they're clear about that in the GE.

Fine if they stood but were clear that 'On this important point I don't agree with the manifesto and if it comes down to it my personal conscience will mean I won't follow this part'. Then their members and voters can make an informed choice.

Otherwise how can we actually know what we are voting for? If MPs will then vote against the manifesto they stood on on the most significant issue of the day?

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 13:19

To be clear I think all kinds of mistakes have been made which have led to this mess. I hate no deal as much as anyone else.

However if I take a step back and look at the situation objectively from the other viewpoint I can absolutely see where Leavers are coming from.

Imagine if Green MPs stood on a manifesto to move to net CO2 emissions by 2025 (following a referendum showing 52% wanted this who were told their views would be followed). Formed a minority Govt with a C&S agreement with the Lib Dem's who also supported the exact same thing...and then several Green MPs who hadn't agreed with the policy at the time but kept this to themselves because they didn't think we would actually go through with it and it would be too harmful to the economy fought against it without (a) declaring they didn't agree with this particular policy at the time of the election (b) didn't resign from the party despite not agreeing with a fairly central policy (c) voted their own Green minority Govt out in favour of the opposition without resigning/any by election.

If you apply the same facts to any other situation it isn't a good model of democracy at all.

IMO we either need the GNU to call a GE so that a party/parties can be voted in with a clear mandate OR all MPs that are going against their parties core stance on Brexit should go up for by-elections. Personally I think the former is better.

This is too important a decision to put in place a way forward which can be construed as twisting democracy and the current constitutional processes to get a specific outcome.

TatianaLarina · 17/08/2019 13:26

Referendums are such a famously shit model of democracy, to the point of being abolished in Germany after the war, that that argument is null.

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 13:32

Anyway that's my tuppence. I couldn't be more of a Remainer but to argue there's no mandate for 'no deal' but that the GNU would have a mandate for a PV has no logical consistency as far as I can see.

I've stuck up for the Tory rebels a lot over the past six months but actually having mulled it over as this was obviously the central issue of the 2017 election they should have declared if they didn't sign up to a key policy that TM was repeating and that was in the manifesto. I think this should be a requirement of all candidates going forward.

The only fair and democratic way out of this mess now (if we manage to get a GNU) is an extension with a GE with each party clearly stating it's intentions.

If this is a referendum it should include what the questions are that it proposes on the referendum.

If it's to get a Brexit deal it should be clear on what we will be asking for so that people can make a reasonably informed choice on (a) whether the EU will make the changes to the WA (unlikely) or PD and (b) if they agree with them.

All parties should be clear on their intentions for the longer term agreement.

Anything else is just continuing to fudge the situation and continuing to give the other side reasons to declare it undemocratic. To me - this is now the more important thing....we must not set up a situation where a large majority of the population feels that democracy is working against them. This really could be a catalyst for horrible unintended consequences down the line playing into the hands of the hard right.

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 13:40

Referendums are such a famously shit model of democracy, to the point of being abolished in Germany after the war, that that argument is null.

All sorts of mistakes were made - referendums are shit, they are particularly stupid when they're against the Government's actual stance (who wanted to stay in the EU), they are even more stupid when they don't have better rules in place for a specific majority to be needed for a massive fundamental change. Even worse is when we hold them without very good regulation around acceptable vs unacceptable campaign methods. And frankly horrifying when you add all this together and then tell the people that a legally advisory referendum will definitely be followed.

But....

  • we (the UK) voted in a party that said they would hold one in their manifesto.
  • They held one and lost
  • The PM said quite clearly that it would be followed.

We can't turn back the clock and I've come to the conclusion that given these facts we can't just ignore that it happened and argue Leavers are nuts for expecting what they were clearly told.

Violetparis · 17/08/2019 13:45

wheresmymojo you have articulated my views and frustrations with the whole situation far better than I ever could.

Peregrina · 17/08/2019 14:02

The problem with your argument whreesmymojo is that May went and lost her majority. It's also very likely that Boris Johnson, even with the DUP will lose his too. Therefore IMO the promises in the Manifesto, aren't deliverable and they are only promises - Governments can and do ditch manifesto commitments.

I've stuck up for the Tory rebels a lot over the past six months but actually having mulled it over as this was obviously the central issue of the 2017 election they should have declared if they didn't sign up to a key policy that TM was repeating and that was in the manifesto.

Boris Johnson, though, signed up to May's Chequers agreement and then walked out of the job. He is as much of a rebel as anyone, is he to be supported?

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/08/2019 14:14

I'm struggling to see how a logical, unbiased argument can be made for including Remain but leaving out a No Deal transition.

Because in 2016 the people who voted leave voted to leave with a deal. (in fact at the time - no one was talking about leaving the single market). Therefore there is no mandate for no deal.
The fact that parliament and many people didn't like the deal they got is a consequence of the stupidity of voting for something that is not defined. But that is nobody's problem but their's. They voted on a mystery box - the thing inside was the W.A.

Considering how many people dislike it - it is fair to say - OK, we'll let you choose whether you wanted this thing you voted for (when you didn't know what it was) or if you want to keep the status quo after all.

There was a poll a couple of pages back (I think it was still this thread) that showed that no deal is actually in third position now - polling at around 19%. The top two choices were W.A and remain. It makes perfect sense to give a referendum between the top two choices.
It makes no sense to bring in the third choice option once the top option (remain - 43% I think) has been knocked out. That's just holding back the least popular option until it has a chance to win by default - neither fair nor democratic.

Then there is the fact that a parliamentary democracy is not supposed to be a populist vehicle to deliver on every whim of the people. It is supposed to act in the best interests of the nation. It is not anti democratic to tell people that in the event of no deal people will die - starting with people whose access to life saving medication will be compromised. Nor is it antidemocratic for a parliamentary democracy to say therefore they will not do this thing. No matter how many people want it (only 19% so - no mandate anyway).

There is precedent for such a thing happening (though obviously on no where near as big a scale). Had the legislation to ban the death penalty and the legislation to legalise abortion been put to the people in a referendum back in the 60s - they wouldn't have passed. The govt did it anyway - because they believed it was the right thing to do. It was unpopular - but it is not the govts job to give us what we say we want, it is to act in the best interest of the country.

Remain is the other option in a logical non biased way not because it is the single most popular option (it is) but because it is the status quo. You don't ask people 'change or other change' - you ask people 'change or the same.' If you ask change or other change you disenfranchise everyone who wants things to stay the same. If you offer W.A vs remain then everyone who still wants hard brexit still has a way of making that happen if enough people agree with them. No one has been disenfranchised.

Jacob Rees Mogg said in 2011:

We could have two referendums. As it happens it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed

I don't think, back then, he was suggesting that we take time to renegotiate a deal and then offer the people a choice of accepting it or chucking it out of the window and winging the whole thing. He meant 'do you want the deal or the status quo?'

It is not the remainer argument that has failed to be consistent. It is the leaver argument that has been continually moving the goalposts since 2016. They always insist that they always wanted what they want right now ... and then they shift the goalposts again. Pandering to their (current) whim is not logical, consistent or democratic. It is, however, dangerous. That whim will change again.

in 2016 we were asked do you want to leave (undefined) or remain. People gambled - and it turns out they didn't like what they got. It is fair to ask - OK, this is the result of your gamble, do you want it - or do you want to keep things as they were? It is not fair to ask - OK this is the result of your gamble - do you want it or shall we gamble some more with even less chance of success?

Remain is the other option because it is the status quo.

On the other hand there is no argument for allowing no deal on the ballot beyond 'we want it.'.. Really, what is any other reason or argument for it? And actually only 19% of people want it so 'we want it' is not an accurate depiction of the mood of the vast majority of the electorate.

If leavers feel betrayed - then that is one of the ugly side effects of their having been betrayed - by the leavers in parliament and Nigel Farage. They lied in the campaign, they didn't put any work into getting a deal because it was much harder than they thought, they whipped up populist sentiment and used dog whistle politics in order to disguise how badly they were failing, and then they voted down the exit mechanism.

If leavers are not intelligent enough to understand where the betrayal actually lies - then that is no good reason to give them what they say they want or not work to prevent disaster. A confirmatory vote remain vs W.A does work towards what they actually voted for - brexit with a deal - they need to realise that, and if they can't it still isn't anyone's problem but theirs.

I have written before that 'no deal' is not a permanent state of affairs. There will eventually have to be some kind of arrangement. Will they just accept those terms no matter what? Or will they ultimately still feel betrayed? And how does a govt democratically go about pursuing a deal with Europe when the people have voted for 'no deal' - and the only reason they offered that was too soothe this sense of betrayal? They will have a mandate to leave us in a deal-less limbo to the end of eternity. They will have tied their own hands for a fiction that cannot be sustained.

If people genuinely want a hardest of hard brexits - a GNU offering a confirmatory vote does not prevent that. Hard brexit is not a fiction - unlike no deal - it can be sustained. If leavers want a hard brexit they vote for the WA and then in the following GE they vote tory/BXP. If enough people want it then they will get it. That is democracy. But they will get it without the chaos of no deal (which even if they desperately want will not last forever so it is not worth voting on - but again 19%)

If leavers cannot see that a GNU/confirmatory vote is not cheating them out of the hardest of hard brexits then again - that is simply because they have failed to understand (again). And we shouldn't not do something sensible, which avoids disaster, is democratic and is logically consistent just because some members of the public don't understand it.

The only way they will not get this hard brexit is if a majority of people vote in a way to stop it - wither remain or for softer brexit parties in a GE. But that would not be anti-democratic and the leavers would not have been betrayed
You're not 'betrayed' just because your viewpoint is a minority (19%). People disagreeing and choosing something else is not 'betrayal' - and once more, if they don't understand that that is no one's problem but their own and we do not have to pander to it

So - that's the logical and consistent argument for including remain (status quo) and not no deal (unsustainable fiction not offered at the time of voting in 2016).
What is the argument for including no deal? 'we want it' is not good enough - nor is it actually representative.
If the argument is 'remain was rejected in 2016' - then the answer to that isn't to offer no deal, the answer to that is for parliament to pass the W.A and give us brexit.

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 14:22

Because in 2016 the people who voted leave voted to leave with a deal. (in fact at the time - no one was talking about leaving the single market). Therefore there is no mandate for no deal.

Most people who voted Leave would say they voted Leave by whatever means required and that they didn't care how it would be achieved. The referendum asked them if they wanted to leave and they did.

I don't think we can realistically say to someone that we know their motivations and desires for voting a specific way better than they themselves.

I would be pretty indignant if someone told me they knew the reasons I voted LibDem (for example) better than I did.

The referendum question was stupid, the campaign was stupid. But it happened, we asked a question and got an answer - we can't now tell people that they didn't mean what they said.

Violetparis · 17/08/2019 14:23

Maybe an election where parties clearly state their preferred way forward whether it's another referendum, a deal or no deal is the best way to resolve this.

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 14:26

The fact that parliament and many people didn't like the deal they got is a consequence of the stupidity of voting for something that is not defined.

I don't think this statement is truly fair - it was the fault of Parliament that the question was stupid and not defined well enough.

People who voted Leave (like the rest of us) got no say on the wording of the question.

I don't think it's fair to say, we'll give you two options (a) something you really don't want and (b) something you really want that isn't well defined. You have no other choices and this is the only time you'll get to choose in a generation.

By the way, if you choose (b) then you'll be deemed stupid.

That's basically a stitch up.... any human faced with that kind of decision will choose (b).

DarlingNikita · 17/08/2019 14:30

Most people who voted Leave would say they voted Leave by whatever means required and that they didn't care how it would be achieved. They'd say that now, yes, but I wonder how many would have said that at the time, given that many possible options including staying in the CU and/or SM, not to mention Norway and Switzerland-type deals (see Nigel Farage) were touted.

I don't think we can realistically say to someone that we know their motivations and desires for voting a specific way better than they themselves. No, but we can – and a responsible administration should – present voters with the likely outcomes of whichever option they choose. That's how referendums work in countries who have a better idea than us of how to do it.

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 14:32

Violet Paris

Maybe an election where parties clearly state their preferred way forward whether it's another referendum, a deal or no deal is the best way to resolve this.

That's the conclusion I have come to. For the sake of retaining some trust in the way our country works - anything else can easily be seen by one side or the other as a 'stitch up'.

I'm playing devil's advocate as I've come to see how things appear to be from a Leaver's perspective and actually there are reasonable arguments that the process has let them down.

What I actually believe is that the process - from start to finish - has let everyone down on both sides and so the only way forward is to have a GE with clear positions stated.

Doing anything else runs the risk of removing so much faith in democracy that we cause unintended consequences which could be worse than a no deal Brexit (think 1930s Germany). Let's not create a situation that could give the hard right a really decent argument that democracy doesn't serve the people.

Icantreachthepretzels · 17/08/2019 14:33

I'm sorry wheresmymojo you're not playing devil's advocate - you are pandering to the arguments of fascists. why?

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 14:35

In what way am I pandering to the argument of fascists?

I think that's a bit silly.

My argument is that we should have a General Election with clearly stated positions on Brexit.

How is that fascist?

wheresmymojo · 17/08/2019 14:38

I think honestly if we start saying people who want a GE with clearly stated positions on Brexit are pandering to fascists we have become the Remain version of the ERG.

Frankiestein402 · 17/08/2019 14:40

I don't think it's unfair for people who voted for the Conservatives to believe that "but we continue to believe that no deal is better than a bad deal" means that we would leave with no deal if we didn't get a deal that was deemed to be acceptable to the UK

We are not talking about 'an acceptable deal' we are talking about withdrawal without an agreement. We keep confusing WA and deal - I'm guilty of the same - the whole thrust of manifesto and supporting documents was getting a deal - a single line about the deal, buried in the text, doesn't give them a mandate to walk away from an orderly withdrawal?

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