The NI border issue can never be resolved can it?

[Bearbehind]

We would have left by now if is wasn’t for the border issue in NI and I genuinely can’t see a positive outcome.

If, 20 years after the GFA, peace is still so fragile a border is incompressible and any other option basically breaks up the union - how can it ever end well?

No Deal will have only negative consequences

If no deal is the certain economic Armageddon some say maybe ignoring GFA is not that significant in comparison?

Hopefully not. I hope there is a deal, but time is fading fast.

@TheEmpireNoMore - If no deal is the certain economic Armageddon some say maybe ignoring GFA is not that significant in comparison?

So as usual, let's screw the Irish?

The vote in Wales was driven by the closure of the Coal and steel industries.
It was looking backwards not forwards.

So as usual, let's screw the Irish?

Don’t remember saying that. Point was that if the UK goes down the plug as some remain supporters advocate then issues arising from GFA non compliance may pale into insignificance?

Are the Westminster MPs that bothered about GFA? Views expressed on this thread suggest that MPs are not interested in anything other than delivering the referendum to protect their well paid jobs.

Amber Rudd has done a complete U turn as she wants a cabinet job and the perks that go with it

@TheEmpireNoMore - This thread is going the way the EU wants UK to go. Let the member states battle among themselves, become weaker and then the EU moves in for an easy kill.

Seriously? The current clusterfuck is purely the result of British arrogance, intransigence and ignorance. If any consideration had been given to the GFA, the UK red lines would not have been drawn up as they were. If the UK had not been arrogant enough to think the EU would give them whatever they wanted (specifically, a better deal than membership), the UK might have actually negotiated from a realistic position where they recognised what was possible and what was impossible. If the UK had, when it became apparent their approach was not feasible, said "OK, lets take a step back and see what is the best approach", they might have negotiated something that gave a reasonable amount of what they wanted while recognising they couldn't have everything.

Basically, the UK could have left on time and with a decent agreement that protected the GFA if they hadn't been such idiots who were only concerned with party and power.

I can't believe there are people idiots in this country who think that saying "it'll be fiiiiiiiine" works for the NI border.

The vote in Wales was driven by the closure of the Coal and steel industries

Not so sure about the steel industry, but closure of the coal industry was to trash unions. However, the economic argument at the time was that coal could be imported from EU for half the price.

@bellinisurge - I can't believe there are people idiots in this country who think that saying "it'll be fiiiiiiiine" works for the NI border.

Or, probably worse, "who cares".

{However, the economic argument at the time was that coal could be imported from EU for half the price.}

It is this double standard that is peculiar.
If you are talking coal, then yes I think it was Poland that could produce coal significantly cheaper.
It was the government rationale about the situation that was wrong. If you can but baked beans at shop A for £1, and the same beans from shop B for £2, it is pretty obvious that you need to think of a new strategy. Do you subsidise coal in the UK, because it keeps men employed, and by extension, families fed and clothed, or do you scrap the UK collieries and just hand 'cash' to the unemployed?
The same moral dilemma is being played out continually, and many governments (not just the UK) are refusing to address the issue.

It is this double standard that is peculiar.
If you are talking coal, then yes I think it was Poland that could produce coal significantly cheaper

About half the price I remember. £22 per ton as opposed to £44 per ton. However, that was money leaving the UK as opposed to circulating within the UK.

Factor in costs of redundancy payment, loss of money spent in local economies, etc., there may not have been an economic benefit?

@TheEmpireNoMore , this thread is not about anything other than fixing the problem of the NI border. Trying to distract with vague Leaver points on other issues doesn't solve the NI border.

I mentioned Wales because people voted leave and remain on issues utterly unrelated to the actual question.
In NI the vote went on pretty much sectarian lines.
Most people in England knew little and cared less about the border.

The fact that the border between the UK and the RoI has more crossing points than that between the USA and Canada despite being somewhat shorter
was news to most of us

"In NI the vote went on pretty much sectarian lines."

But it didn't; that's the point. For Remain to be the largest vote there both Nationalists and Unionists would have had to support it.

That is the point.

It's got quite a lot to do with a small band of thugs and criminals hiding under a banner of convenience...

If you think paramilitaries are a small band, then I'm afraid I can't have a sensible conversation with you. Paramilitaries didn't go away, they lay dormant to adhere to the GFA because public opinion would have eviscerated them had they broken the ceasefire.

If the GFA is broken by the British government, the ceasefire no longer applies.

So no, it's not worth putting the economy in England over the GFA because people have finally realised they've spectacularly shot themselves in the foot.

Why should NI be sacrificed in order to save England from what it voted for?

I do not have the full NI Data set to hand, but I thought these voting stats
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum#Northern_Ireland
pretty much reflect the MPs and thus the divide

In NI the vote went on pretty much sectarian lines

What lines? I know a substantial amount of nationalists in NI who voted Leave because they thought it was their best chance at a border poll. I also know unionists who voted Remain because they felt remaining in the EU was the best option for their kids educationally.

bellinisurge is right - I think it's really important not to underestimate what an overall Remain vote meant in NI. It meant fuck all to anyone else but for a bit it was important here.

Some images of the unapproved crossings and how the UK dealt with them. Doctors, vets and priests were able to get a special licence to use them.

Roads were blocked or blown up. Locals used diggers to open the roads as quick as the army closed them.

There are also farmers who own land which crosses the border in several places.

Sadly No Dealers use this as a reason why it'll all be fiiiiiiiine.

@InTheHeatofLisbon - There are also farmers who own land which crosses the border in several places.

Yes. Will they now need the special licences that doctors, vets etc used need to use unapproved roads?

There used to be a pub with one door opening to the north and the other opening to the south. Hard to convict anyone of drinking outside hours if the left the jurisdiction as soon as you came in the door

Yes. Will they now need the special licences that doctors, vets etc used need to use unapproved roads?

Good point!

There used to be a pub with one door opening to the north and the other opening to the south. Hard to convict anyone of drinking outside hours if the left the jurisdiction as soon as you came in the door

That fair tickled me, good on them

@bellinisurge - I can't believe there are people idiots in this country who think that saying "it'll be fiiiiiiiine" works for the NI border.
*
Or, probably worse, "who cares".*

I think the prevailing attitude seems to be 'who cares' asking with just bribe or threaten the Irish until the fall in line.

*along with
bloody auto correct

The appalling commentary from members of the British government has eroded all goodwill from the general public in Ireland. Previously, we would have been pretty sympathetic and hoped brexit might be cancelled. Now, I think most people would just like to see the back of the UK (with the caveat of maintaining the GFA).

I think the prevailing attitude seems to be 'who cares' along with just bribe or threaten the Irish until the fall in line

Completely agree.