Westminstenders: It couldn't get any worse... Until today

[RedToothBrush]

We are trapped in the tailspin of the end of the UK. Firmly headed downward and getting more and more frenzied and desperate.

Even the most sensible of types like David Allen Green have finally noticed that Brexit isn't about leaving the EU it's about the frenzied and wilful destruction of our state instutions and structure. The collapse of the civil service, of our justice system, our democratic institutions and social order. All in the name of rule Britannia, a warped sense of taking back control to preserve an ideal that never existed and an idea of sovereignity that simply was a fantasy.

We move ever closer to Johnson becoming Prime Minister and a life under President Trump.

Joy.

Ode to Joy really isn't that bad.

Good morning. Just marking my place until I can catch up later.

One point.... he prorogued parliament to call an election.... That is what happens when you call an election - parliament gets prorogued (I think?).

I am NOT denying that there was some very "political" manoeuvring, but I do not think it was as bad as the concept of prorogue-ing parliament to effectively change the way the UK is governed....

Morning all.

I find myself idly wondering if there would be any statistical basis for my (prejudiced) suspicion that Brexiteers are more likely to be superstitious than Remainers ? Might be a fruitful line of research.

Why does Dante wonder this today, nobody in particular asks .

Because I wonder what they would make of the portent of the pride of the British Navy (at £3.1 billion poundsit had better be) putting to sea for it's trials on the world stage ... and being forced to limp home leaking water.

It's certainly a powerful metaphor, if there are any Remain meme-meisters out there.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-48933881

A hostile environment story for you:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-48907130?__twitter_impression=TRUE
NHS fees: 'Couple couldn't take baby's body home'

Charging overseas patients for NHS care in England must be suspended until it is clear it is not harming women, the Royal College of Midwives has said.

A couple whose baby died following an emergency Caesarean were not given the body as they were unable to pay £10,000 in medical fees, one doctor has said.

Joe Rylands said the expansion of charging had caused "disbelief" among many colleagues.

The Department of Health said the charges had raised £1.3bn since 2015.

In 2018, Dr Rylands was working in a maternity hospital when a woman from Western Europe on holiday in the UK came in - she was eight months pregnant and had started bleeding. Obstetricians performed an emergency Caesarean but the baby died.

When she and her partner were recovering on a ward, they were interviewed by an overseas visitors manager, in charge of billing.

Because they did not have a valid European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) they were told they had to pay £10,000 for the care they received - which they could not do.

Yeah I was going to say the same.

I also don't think that something that happened over 20 years ago necessarily negates a view held now.

That nmdacosta account is quite Brexity - not that this negates her view but for context.

That nmdacosta account is quite Brexity - not that this negates her view but for context

She was a former tory advisor on parliamentary procedures and protocol I believe.

Ok I'm calling bullshit on this "John Major prorogued Parliament" business.

Per Wikipedia, the 1997 election, parliament was dissolved on 8th April for a GE on 1st May (3 weeks). The the last possible date for a GE, ie at the end of a 5 year term, was 22nd May.

For comparison, in the 2017 election, parliament was dissolved on 3rd May for an election on 8th June (5 weeks).

Different rules applied. One is pre fixed Parliament rule. One is after.

That's not what I'm saying.

He was a Tory and the only time I've ever had any time for him was on Brexit.

But if Wikipedia has the dates right, they don't support the idea that he did anything unusual in 1997.

Of course the timing of the GE was political - governments always called elections when they thought they could win one (wasn't that one reason for the FTPA?) - but people are implying that the U.K. was deliberately left without a parliament in a way that was constitutionally exceptional. It doesn't look like that based on the events: an election had to be held by 22nd May at the latest (it was held on 1st May) and parliament was dissolved 3 weeks before that, which looks fairly normal to me.

I make no claim of expertise in parliamentary procedure so I would welcome more expert views.

Ken Clarke, back in the day was just another Tory bastard, determined to exterminate the poor and the disadvantaged.... well, thats my seating on the fence opinion.

Like Major, he is far less brexity than most of todays Cons but let's not paint these people for anything less than they are, both Thatcherites and carried out some very right wing policies.

There is always the issue that when Major was in power Labour were a functioning opposition and most 'normal' activities were proceeding. Had there been a 'scuffle behind the bike sheds' and Labour had taken over, apart from a bit of a 'blip' life for most others would have continued.
Currently neither Tories nor Labour have any real direction, command of the situation or even respect for UK citizens, or other countries and diplomats. The 'rag tag' of Remain parties are taking a long time to get any sort of act together and they have had over 2 years to do this, which strongly suggests with not many than a hundred days or so to go, it will be too little too late.

No, I don't think Major's proroguing was particularly political. He would have had to have had an election 3 weeks later. By going for 1st May, he would have been able to combine the vote with Local Government elections, which is more convenient and saves money - one lot of polling station fees, one lot of polling station staff to pay.

Johnson doesn't have to call an election until 2022 - not three weeks or so after he becomes PM.

{Ken Clarke, back in the day was just another Tory bastard, determined to exterminate the poor and the disadvantaged.}

No one can please everyone else even some of the time and world events scupper even the best laid plans. Unless the UK has a ruthless dictator in command everybody in the party will have a mixture of good and bad policies and plans. I am not defending Clarke necessarily, I can't remember the situations but as everything in life things are a hell of a lot more complicated than all but the most 'nerdy' can comprehend. Sad that the elimination of much of the UK heavy industry was, when faced with the massive impact of Chinese and other countries entry to the market you have to think around it and take a longer view. Pouring billions into activities that will be a massive lossmaker is ridiculous. Of course responsible government would have listened to experts and come up with an alternative strategy, but when you have the unions of the time with what I consider very 18th Century 'demands' and a reluctance, almost Luddite attitudes, no one can 'win'.
If the UK can 'reconfigure' and ditch the industry that is being removed by China, Vietnam and India but step up to do more specialised 'HiTech' activities where perhaps a 4 or 3 day week but adequate pay to have a comfortable lifestyle would be great. Unfortunately the Government, who would need to lead on this sort of radical plan, are still stuck in Victorian age mentality of 'grind the bastards down' because they are expendable.

Ta red

But if BJ prorogued parliament for an election, that's one of the reasons thr EU would extend the deadline, or have I misunderstood something quite possible

This is not a Tory vs Labour thing. This is extremists vs moderates.

No, Major is not guilty re prorogation:
Calling a GE automatically prorogues Parliament

Major only called a GE 3 weeks earlier than the mandatory 5 year time limit

Combining with local elections saved some of the £140 million cost of a GE
- he would have been crucified if he had them on separate dates at a cost of extra millions

It would have been extraordinary to do this
AND also to make people vote twice in 3 weeks - turnout would have been atrocious

That Major and Clarke are and were Tories is a separate matter:
they were hardly going to implement Labour / LDem policies in office

However, policies we disagree with are a very different issue to using dodgy methods to force them through without Parliament being allowed to debate or vote

red's NHS link
Keeping a dead baby for ransom has to be the lowest of the low

Whenever I think we have hit rock bottom in cruelty, something worse is revealed

Combining with local elections saved some of the £140 million cost of a GE - he would have been crucified if he had them on separate dates at a cost of extra millions

Which of course was exactly the mess Theresa May got into with her Eurorpean elections. In that case instead of shilly-shallying about not knowing whether we would still have to have those elections, she could have delayed the Local Government elections for three weeks, so that they were both on the same day.

Like Major, he is far less brexity than most of todays Cons but let's not paint these people for anything less than they are, both Thatcherites and carried out some very right wing policies.

For sure. But I think you have to be capable of separating political opinions from the way people conduct themselves in public life.