Good Friday Agreement

[CatherineTheLate]

It's often said (and this has been repeated here) that we cannot have a hard border with Ireland because of the Good Friday Agreement (Belfast Agreement). Obviously, this would only apply to goods anyway because the UK and Ireland have a Common Travel Area which predates the EU and its predecessors, but can someone point out to me which part of the GFA it would breach?

You can get a copy of the GFA here www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf and its only 35 pages long so it won't take long to read. Remainers will obviously be very keen to show me.

If Cameron had bothered to give NI and the GFA a bit of consideration before putting a referendum to people with no clear plan for a leave outcome maybe we wouldn't be in this sorry mess.

But as always, NI does not matter it is over there, an afterthought.

So what suggestions do those posters who are from Ireland, NI or ROI or citizens who now live somewhere else, have to solve the problem?

Why would any of those people have a solution to a problem they didn’t create?

Why would any of those people have a solution to a problem they didn’t create?

To avoid a No Deal and to avoid a hard border between NI and ROI.

There CANNOT be a hard border between NI and ROI. No matter how long the threat is dangled over us to make us sort the U.K. governments fuck up. It will not happen. We know this. It’s time the U.K. government accepted it.

Do you understand why there is a border, OP?

If you stop to consider the history of Britain and Ireland, past and recent, you will start to understand why it is not only the wording of the GFA that is important, but the work, the process, the relationship that it has been part of. When I was younger I didn't know how the Troubles would end and it was amazing to see it unfold.

I'm a Brit btw but always interested in politics, history and in Ireland itself. To live through it in Ireland/NI must have been even more significant. And now to see it torn apart is heartbreaking.

{They can't have any because there are none

If that's the case then is No Deal a certainty?}

No deal brings the necessity for a border into sharper focus.
The ONLY solution to having no border is for NI and Ireland to have full SM and CU AND retain the rights of citizens of NI and Ireland to travel unhindered as they are now.
The 'fudge' that is proposed by the EU is that NI follows EU rules for trade and that the citizens rights stay as they are. A 'border' would then be necessary between the rUK and NI.
Both the EU and the USA do not want to see a border on Ireland and but the mechanisms they would use to try to prevent it's necessity are different.

@TheEmpireNoMore - here's my suggestion: if we have to Brexit put a border in the sea and make NI a special economic zone where we have the legal fudge to pretend that GFA isn't being fucked over. Such a zone would be so prosperous that the DUP probably get to delay the inevitable of (re)unification . Which will happen when the demographics tip towards a majority Nationalist (apologies for shorthand term) population. But not if NI is better off as a special economic zone.

For peace to last and to comply with the GFA there cannot be a border between the citizens of NI and ROI. There also cannot be any border or distinction between the citizens of NI and the rest of the UK.

Therefore there can be no border or customs differences on the land...and no border or customs differences on the irish sea. There has been no solution proposed by Brexiteers which doesnt cause one of these borders. Hence why we are still talking about it 3 years later.

The only solution is to cancel Brexit. If there was a better solution David Cameron would have thought of it by now because he is the greatest prime minister there ever was.

{There also cannot be any border or distinction between the citizens of NI and the rest of the UK. }

Resident of NI already have privileges not available to the rest of the UK citizens. They are entitled (by the GFA) to both UK and Irish (and hence EU) passports.

Nobody is compelled to obtain an Irish passport if they don’t view themselves as Irish. This does not threaten peace.

Being forced to follow a separate customs regime than the rest of the UK and being forced to follow the same one as ROI is viewed as a weakening of the union by many unionists and a step toward a united ireland. This threatens peace.

Is it really that hard to understand?

Not hard to understand. Which explains why there was a majority vote for Remain in NI. The Leave vote was concentrated in strong Unionist areas. So what did they expect?

Sadly I guess they were only thinking of themselves and expected if there was going to be any border it would be on the land. Which is why the referendum should never have taken place without thought to NI and GFA. GFA put mechanisms in place to make sure both sides were considered in daily life.

Your point about the special economic zone is probably the only way the UK government will be able to plaster over this mess and trick NI residents into keeping quiet and taking advantage over any possible prosperity ( if there is any) for another 20 years. I guess money talks.Until the next generation come along and vote for some other crap that messes it all up again.

We thought the GFA was to be a permanent and longer lasting solution. Unfortunately Cameron proved to have a very short memory.

My special economic zone idea is what I see as a pot to brew fudge in. And to pretend Brexit never happened in NI. I'm not a legal expert in setting it up but I have seen it used on the Hong Kong Border before the handover and it worked.

@blubberyboo - Your point about the special economic zone is probably the only way the UK government will be able to plaster over this mess and trick NI residents into keeping quiet and taking advantage over any possible prosperity ( if there is any) for another 20 years. I guess money talks.

Seriously? I really hope you didn't mean that the way it reads. It is patronising and insulting to the people of NI.

Don't the DUP want Westminster patronage then?

Restart Stormont if that's the case

@bellinisurge - Don't the DUP want Westminster patronage then?

The DUP are not the residents of NI. They certainly don't represent the majority viewpoint wrt brexit. Suggesting that NI residents need to be tricked is suggesting that they are: 1) stupid and 2) lacking principles.

The political system in NI is complicated. Voting patterns tend to be based on a "tribal" basis. From what I understand many people who are more moderately inclined don't actually bother voting because of the lack of choice.

@bellinisurge - Restart Stormont if that's the case

What has that got to do with the insulting comment re the NI residents? Stormont needs to be restarted. Most residents of NI, RoI and GB would agree. It is the intransigence of certain politicians that is preventing it from happening.

A special economic zone would give NI the chance to work it out themselves. Via Stormont.

@CatherineTheLate

Whether the GFA specifies no border or not is irrelevant, once we leave the SM and CU there has to be a border, show me any country in the world that doesn't protect its own markets and security?

Of course back in 1998, the idea either ROI or the UK would leave the EU wouldn't have crossed anyones mind, it simply didn't figure on the radar.

But whether there is a technical solution or secure trader status schemes etc, criminality still has to be addressed and the EU has to protect its own consumers from goods and foods that do not met their own regs, that means checks for illegality, checks risk a return to a militarised border etc etc.

Of course should the UK agree to adhere to EU standards then the problem goes away but so does the ERGs red line of an independent trade policy.

Does this answer your question?

By the way, the comment about tricking NI residents wasn't mine. I don't think that is appropriate or necessary.

Isthisafreename..it is directed at the fact that we were tricked into believing the GFA was solid and could not be revoked or changed. ...and yet it seems that is what is now happening..so yes why not just attempt to trick us all again. It is not patronising to the people of northern ireland ( i am one myself so am hardly going to trick myself ) but rather a dig at the nastiness of governments to push through an agenda to suit one group in society ( the english and welsh) over the minority.

@bellinisurge - By the way, the comment about tricking NI residents wasn't mine. I don't think that is appropriate or necessary.

I know that. There may be crossed wires here. I assumed your comment re the DUP and patronage was in response to my comment on the post talking about tricking the NI residents. If not, I apologise.

I am in full agreement with you re the special economic zone, preferably with an agreement on parity of rights, as per the GFA. I was disagreeing with the suggestion that NI residents should or could be tricked. I should probably have only included the second half of the sentence in my quote.

@blubberyboo

I guess that's the problem with the written word - irony doesn't always come through.

@Isthisafreename no problem. I'm an Irish citizen via my Irish born Mum. I am old . I have colleagues in NI branch of my employer (wouldn't dream if discussing this with them). I voted Remain. The only version of Brexit I will accept is one that doesn't mess with GFA. I think a special economic zone would allow the people of NI to work this mess out for themselves.