Good Friday Agreement

[CatherineTheLate]

It's often said (and this has been repeated here) that we cannot have a hard border with Ireland because of the Good Friday Agreement (Belfast Agreement). Obviously, this would only apply to goods anyway because the UK and Ireland have a Common Travel Area which predates the EU and its predecessors, but can someone point out to me which part of the GFA it would breach?

You can get a copy of the GFA here www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf and its only 35 pages long so it won't take long to read. Remainers will obviously be very keen to show me.

[NoBaggyPants]

We cannot have open borders without free movement. Open borders mean everything flows without checks. As simple as that.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

Anything that is done without the majority agreement of the people is contrary to the agreement

This.

We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South, and between these islands.

There's your quote. Westminster stamping in with their big, muckle boots on and demanding it's done their way because they said so absolutely defeats the purpose of the GFA.

So tell us Catherine, why didn't you think about this 3 years ago?

[NoBaggyPants]

Offhore solution is required.

That's still a border.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

We cannot have open borders without free movement. Open borders mean everything flows without checks. As simple as that.

Absolutely. it worked fine for the Northern Irish and Irish people until England and Wales moved the goalposts with their votes.

So why should England and Wales get to fuck it all up? Especially given that it was the British government that caused it all in the first place?

Can you genuinely not see how wrong that is? Genuinely?

[GrouchoMrx]

CatherineTheLate is being disingenuous.


The Good Friday Agreement is neither here nor there to Brexiters. The fact that Northern Ireland voted to remain is of little concern to Brexiters.



The problem with a hard border in Ireland is that there is no chance of a US trade agreement if there is a hard border.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/us-will-not-agree-uk-trade-deal-if-hard-border-in-ireland-z709pcvtt

The EU have said likewise.


If only it was as simple as the UK threatening to starve Ireland into submission as Priti Patel so helpfully suggested last December.

[LifeContinues]

*That's still a border"

But not a land based border between NI and ROI.

[Isthisafreename]

11. The implementation bodies will have a clear operational remit. They will implement on an all-island and cross-border basis policies agreed in the council.
    
    There you go. A hard border would prevent practical implementation of many of the agreed cross-border areas of cooperation.
    
    The GFA is not a static, stand alone document. It defines and facilitates processes and procedures that must be (and have been) implemented. The fact that it doesn't explicitly prohibit a hard border is irrelevant. If a hard border prevents its effective implementation, then a hard border contravenes the GFA.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

All your talk is inconsistent with it (therefore Unicorns), and of course completely ignores the fact Brexit is 100% on the British. The EU owes you nothing.

This. I'm staggered at people attacking the EU as if they owe us anything.

If DP came home and I told him I hated him, hated everything about our relationship, didn't want to give him a thing but demanded he bow to my demands and let me cherry pick what I wanted to keep and what I wasn't going to do, he'd quite rightly tell me to take a flying fuck to myself.

The EU have been more accommodating than the UK deserves up til now. Ireland is an EU member state, of course their loyalty is to them first.

Stupidity abounds.

[Isthisafreename]

Absolutely. So tell stupid Catherine why the UK is breaching the GFA when it is happy to preserve open borders until the tech solution is in place.

Except WTO rules require the same conditions applied to all members unless there is a specific deal. So an open border with RoI also requires an open border with everyone else. How's that for taking back control of your borders?

[RuggerHug]

Catherine when was the last time you were in NI?

[1tisILeClerc]

{If only it was as simple as the UK threatening to starve Ireland into submission as Priti Patel so helpfully suggested last December.}

There is a certain irony in this in that if the UK 'crashes out' with no deal, and the EU were to put it's collective foot down and enforce the letter of A50, it would be the UK that would at least get very hungry if not 'starve', as it is not self sufficient in food and without treaties being reestablished and the WA being signed the EU would be in a position to embargo (?) all shipments of everything that the UK currently has trades agreements with.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

1tisILeClerc indeed.

But let's not forget that food shortages and medication shortages (including paediatric palliative care drugs btw - confirmed by the boss of the Highlands children's hospice) were dismissed as project fear.

I hope there's enough humble pie to go around, because in the event of a no deal we can all expect a drop in standard of living.

However, for many, thanks to years of austerity and the poverty trap, there is no drop to be had. What happens to them?
It's a shame nobody thought of that.

[1tisILeClerc]

The 'no dealers' had better hope that the EU keeps it's word if the UK really does 'no deal'.
They have established a 12 point plan to prevent total chaos rather than following A50 to the letter.
The EU plan allows most flights (under EU certification), ferries and truck drivers to continue for UP TO 12 months only, and this generosity can be withdrawn at any moment by the EU when it feels it is of no benefit to the EU.
Not quite the 'taking back control' that BoJo is talking about.

[CatherineTheLate]

Thank you. I have read it many times and there is nothing there. But I keep getting told that we have to remain in a Customs Union until the EU decides otherwise because of the GFA. If there is this magic part of the agreement that is not visible to any but Remainer eyes then I would like to know where it is. But as this thread shows, people shout about having an open border without realising that only the EU is thinking of closing it but they prefer to use it as a tool to make the UK submit to their rule.

[RuggerHug]

Once again for the cheap seats at the back!!!!



It is THE UK WANTING THE BORDER.

They wanted 'their' borders.

They are not allowed force one in Ireland because of the internationally recognised peace treaty they signed.

They want exceptions made because they cocked up and didn't think it through.

Again OP in case you just missed my previous question, when was the last time you were in NI?

[Isthisafreename]

@CatherineTheLate - Thank you. I have read it many times and there is nothing there. But I keep getting told that we have to remain in a Customs Union until the EU decides otherwise because of the GFA.

Have you actually read any of the replies that state why a hard border contravenes the GFA? Upthread, I quoted a section on cross-border cooperation and stated why it's irrelevant that the GFA doesn't explicitly prohibit a hard border. I will repeat it here: The GFA is not a static, stand alone document. It defines and facilitates processes and procedures that must be (and have been) implemented. The fact that it doesn't explicitly prohibit a hard border is irrelevant. If a hard border prevents its effective implementation, then a hard border contravenes the GFA.

I also refuted your point about the UK not wanting to impose border checks being irrelevant due to WTO rules requiring parity of treatment. Unless the UK is willing to have no border checks with anyone, then they must have border checks on the Irish border.

[Bearbehind]

people shout about having an open border without realising that only the EU is thinking of closing it but they prefer to use it as a tool to make the UK submit to their rule.

As soon as any Leaver says ‘we don’t want a border and they don’t want a border so we don’t need a border’ it’s clear how pointless any discussion is.

[bellinisurge]

What are "Remainer eyes", op. Genuine question. Do you think your divisive bullshit is just what NI needs a- not genuine question because you clearly do. And, in doing so, you prove you know fuck all about NI.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

I have read it many times and there is nothing there

There is, you just can't or won't understand that.

It's the UK demanding a border, NOT the EU.

I don't know how much more plainly it can be said.

You clearly are either unable or unwilling to understand. Either way, this is a waste of time.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

The irony of the British being told to submit to the will of the Irish is amusing me a lot.

The outrage is at any rate. I mean it's not like the Brits have ever forced their will on to the Irish people at all in the last, oh I don't know, 800 years is it?

Ahahahaha.

[bellinisurge]

@InTheHeatofLisbon , the other amusing thing is (where "amusing" is a relative term) is that this time, Ireland has 26 other mates plus a large body of moral support on both sides of the house in US.

[InTheHeatofLisbon]

bellinisurge aye, so they have. Good on them I say.

Colonial attitudes haven't really moved on much have they? How thoroughly depressing.

[RuggerHug]

I'd almost assume OP was a troll but I do know an English person, living in ROI, with DCs born in UK but on Irish passports, who flew back to the UK to vote for the first time in their life for Brexit. They said afterwards that the 'Northern Ireland issue' wasn't brought up before and they should have known before voting.

They were living here and they didn't cop so I understand why some people didn't think about it, but to still be saying now it's up to everyone else so sort out...it's mind boggling.

[GrouchoMrx]

I do know an English person, living in ROI, with DCs born in UK but on Irish passports, who flew back to the UK to vote for the first time in their life for Brexit. They said afterwards that the 'Northern Ireland issue' wasn't brought up before and they should have known before voting.

There are so many things that can go wrong for someone in her position that it is mind-boggling that she would vote for Brexit.