There really is no point trying to persuade Leavers....

[Closertotheheart]

As the title suggests really. There is no point trying to reason a debate with them as they are totally tunnel-visioned. Loads of them seem to think we should leave without a deal and go on to WTO rules.

They blame the Remainers in parliament for us having not left yet.

They blame Remainers in general for, well, seemingly anything and everything.

They blame the EU for us not having left yet.

They spout myth as if it was fact.

I despair. There really is no point trying to reason with them.

I'm at the point where I feel there is nothing left to say on the topic so let them have their 'victory' so at least they will have no one to blame.

Unless I am mistaken we were PROMISED that by leaving the EU things would be BETTER than being in the EU. So that would mean everything is at least as good and some aspects will be better and NO downsides.
So far even getting within about 3% 'REDUCTION' is looking optimistic and with a 'no deal' who knows where it will go (estimates at around 8-9% REDUCTION).

And you haven't answered the question re. Agriculture tariffs Clavinova.

Closertotheheart
Everything you have referenced today is from 2017.

@clavinova - and has anything changed since? What's your point?

Clavinova - are you falling into typical Leave territory of "La la la la la, I cant hear you" mentality?

Will you have to "pop out soon" as so.many leavers tend to do?

What about tariffs on agriculture? You're good with Google, can you show me how food price increases are a good thing?

Genuine question Clav, since I know you are partial to Brexit threads.

Do you honestly think we will be better off when we leave? As a nation, in terms of wealth and equality?

Look at the exciting list of trade deals we have. Yes, we haven't left yet, but you'd think we'd be in some part way to setting up the easiest trade deals in history and countries would be queuing up to trade with us. Oh wait....

havewegotafuckingtradedealyet.com

Closertotheheart
and has anything changed since? What's your point?

Yes - the tariffs schedule announced in March 2019, assurances from the government, the UK-China Beef Protocol signed two weeks ago, UK-India sheep meat deal signed in December 2018, the lamb and beef trade deal signed with Japan in Jan 2019...

1tisILeClerc seems convinced that the EU are going to starve us into submission - in that case I guess we will be eating quite a lot of British lamb, beef and pork...

Closertotheheart
How old is your trade deal link? It looks very out of date.

{1tisILeClerc seems convinced that the EU are going to starve us into submission - in that case I guess we will be eating quite a lot of British lamb, beef and pork...}

I have never said anything like that, you are deliberately making that up. I suppose it goes with the territory, Leavers tell lies.

Clavinova - I know you like to put a positive spin on things where possible but a simple Google search will tell you that Welsh exports only account for 2.2% of China's trade. Wales' main export on lamb is to EU countries.

Even if chinas market opened up further it still wouldn't replace the market we already have on our doorstep. Plus we still want to trade with the EU, so we'll have to meet their regs regarding food.

1/10 for effort.

Besides it will probably cost most for Wales to trade with China once we leave the EU.

1tisILeClerc
I have never said anything like that, you are deliberately making that up.
I shall amuse myself with advanced search another time...

Closertotheheart
They seem quite happy about the news in Wales -

North Wales Live - 17 June 2019
Lifting of China's British beef ban could be worth millions to Wales
www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/lifting-chinas-british-beef-ban-16443890

@1tisILeClerc you’re right, can’t find much info on this. Just seems to be newspaper based at the moment, which reading from them seems to suggest these negotiations started back in Dec 2017.
Climate change is factoring in on this as you say and may have a knock on effect to other produce.
Farmers in general are having a hard time atm, so worrying times for them.
There are small rumblings beginning in Ireland for Irexit and can’t help wondering if this will fuel their fire.

Leavers voted as a reaction to Tory Austerity. Only, the Tories dressed it up as ‘the nasty EU, making your lives so rubbish’. Vague concepts and sound bites punted cynically to the working classes who needed a target for all that austerity has inflicted on them. The stuff @HateIsBad are symptoms of neglect or outright ideological destruction. Everything she said is absolutely right. But WE should have done it, it isn’t the EU stopping it, it’s the conservative’s policies.
Farage took part in 2 votes in his term in the EU. 2. Out of 300. I would wholeheartedly agree it’s overpriced - what the fuck are we paying him £75k for?! His attendance is the lowest of all MEPs.

So much of what Leavers voted for was already in our government’s gift, but instead they’ve ploughed money into Brexit, HS2 whilst moving their personal fortunes out of the country. That, if nothing else should convince the common person they’re being shafted.

I always puzzled why the average, Sun reading, working class people voted Tory. It’s like trees voting for a chainsaw.

Yes clav, they would be happy in Wales. However if we were to do a direct comparison, it wouldn't equate to anywhere near as much money as EU countries bring to Wales via the sale of Welsh stock.
But don't let maths get in your way, ey?

If leavers are happy to be shafted, then let them be shafted. You can lead a horse to water and all that.

{1tisILeClerc
I have never said anything like that, you are deliberately making that up.
I shall amuse myself with advanced search another time}

Somebody, might have been Clavinova has suggested this before. It wasn't true then, and isn't now.
What is true though is that leavers and especially 'Brexiteers' are still continuing to tell lies.

Just can't my head around how a vote can be ignored by UK government because it is not what the majority of MP's (650 of them in total) wanted.

I can because it's their duty (old fashioned word, that) to enact what they think is for the good of the country and their constituents

^

This

It has been over 3 years since the referendum and over 2 since Article 50 was triggered. We know a lot more about what Brexit looks like now than we did back then when all sorts of options were bandied about without substance like Norway +, Canada +, EEA, Swiss model, staying in the customs union.

MPs know that the choice is either the WA the UK negotiated with the EU or crashing out without a deal so they can asses the merits of each. The WA has been rejected largely by the ERG and DUP as it's not leave enough favouring 'no deal' and other MPs reject 'no deal' because they fear the economic consequences. They have spent the last 3 years trying to deliver Brexit. This is democracy in action.

Fact is like kryptonite to leavers

I have to go out now - but obviously the EU had a significant influence on the Government's austerity policy - the UK was on the EU's Excessive Deficit Procedure List from 2009 until November 2017;

"Naming the Chancellor personally, Pierre Moscovici, the EU finance’s commissioner, told reporters in Brussels that the UK would be removed from the EU’s Excessive Deficit Procedure (EDP)."

"The economics chief said the UK had "durably" reduced its deficit, meaning it would no longer be subject to the potential fines and economic sanctions for having a higher deficit."

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/budget-2017-eu-uk-deficit-philip-hammond-brexit-austerity-excessive-debt-mechanism-remove-a8069226.html

So if we've been removed why are the Tories still carrying on with their austerity programme? The article is 18 months old yet they've not let up.

Also, as pointed out the deficit has been reduced but the DEBT has almost doubled.

Yep, time for clav to "pop out" as predicted

That article highlights the UK's inability to sort it's own finances out which is particularly damning because it is happy to boast about having a high GDP but chooses to not 'spend' it wisely.
That inability is NOT the EU's problem as such, just incompetent UK government management.

I’m also not clear on your point here, @clavinova - where does it say the EU forced us into austerity? There were many options by which the debit could be tackled, hitting public services and the vulnerable has been cited as brutal across the EU.
Phillip Hammond crows about reducing the deficit, and yet again, Leavers fall for the sleight of hand, and deduce the EU is the baddy. The majority of (have to say, in most cases vague) reasons for leaving can sadly be traced back to our own country and the bunch of Eton Alumni currently at the helm of Team GB.

I confess to not being clear on the ‘regaining our sovereignty’ - how does that translate to the individual voters’ life? What does that look like. Somebody explained it’s about decision making - but I’ve yet to hear anything factual or negative that’s been imposed on us? Zero hours contracts? That’s ours. Work time guidelines? They’re a plus, right? By stepping out us little people will now have no say. We have not perhaps had the say we should have due to certain MEPs not actually attending to represent the UK’s interests.

Also, rather than running from, what are we running to? Factually I mean, not ‘we’ll be able to trade freely’ - we already do, inasmuch as we’re not a manufacturing player in the world any longer.
The EU army is a wonderful idea - let’s face it, we couldn’t do the Falklands again now, with the cuts to the armed forces, let alone stand up to China, or Russia. Or anyone.
I see businesses relocating, thousands being made redundant, chain stores and restaurants going bust and nothing home grown to replace it.
We won’t be eating a lot of English beef, or lamb, because we won’t be able to afford it. The work ethic that captures those that come to the UK to prop us up because our out of work don’t want the jobs. They’re not prepared to start at the bottom. They don’t want to work in factories/farms/hotel kitchens/delivering pizzas. Our young are instilled by X Factor, Alan Sugar and instant gratification from endless Smartphone games. We own that. Not the EU.

I had a heart attack recently. From my consultant cardiologist to the lovely lady who came round cleaning every morning - NONE WERE UK BORN - NOT ONE. Chatting to the ward sister (I trained her husband in someth8ng a few years ago) she talked about the difficulties recruiting staff. A combination of the ripped-to shreds public services and our want to be the Top dog on day one with a fat salary mean the market just isn’t there. Mirror this across all our public services.

People then suggest that once the immigrant workforce is not available the jobs will go to our own. They won’t. They don’t want them. What then? You can’t force someone to study to be a doctor. Worse, university fees now remove that route for many school leavers. (And BTW, how is all that enforced student debt reducing the deficit?!).

Cameron took an arrogant gamble to appease the very demographic he and his party were killing. Clever, we now blame Crime, NHS overstretch, housing crisis, rising property prices.... on the EU and all those foreigners over here. Foreigners didn’t take away 20,000 police officers. Theresa May did. And Leavers are giving them an even bigger stick with which to hit them in the forms of JRM, Johnson and Farage.
I wonder if George Orwell is laughing?