Westminstenders: Brace Yourself It's Gonna BeBoris

[RedToothBrush]

It seems inconceivable that Hunt can beat Johnson. And whilst we are all considering the horrors that Prime Johnson can bring...

Let's not forget Brexit, whats Brexit?

Already there is talk that Boris has gone soft on 31st Oct as an absolute. But he's also promised the earth to the ERG.

So what suits Boris best?

What does his ego demand?

What does Boris want his legacy to be?

Our fate rests on Boris's whims and personal desires.

And if you are Scottish, Muslim or otherwise not rich, white and male you might have reason to be concerned.

{but the parliamentary deadlock has meant some of this has not been tackled, money has been diverted away from these issues towards funding Brexit and the austerity measures have continued longer than they needed to}

It is this aspect that is most problematic. We (at least on here) accept that the money going to Brussels is less than a penny in the pound but there has been no real indication that the government will attempt to correct any of the failings that we, and many others have identified. $350 Million a week COULD be going to the NHS now, there is no one stopping it. Policies to help deindustrialised towns could be happening now, and so much more. It seems as if they are waiting for Brexit to go pop , and then what?

Liddington correcting Boris's campaign promises / idiocy

Liddington is probably another who'll be chucked out to the backbenches !

Boris's campaign video:

"of course you solve the problem of free movement of goods across the Irish and Northern Irish and other borders to where they logically belong,
and that is in the context of the Free Trade Agreement that we’ll negotiate in the implementation period, after we’ve come out on Oct 31st.”
🤦🏻‍♀️
....

David Lidington@DLidington

Erm, the Implementation Period is actually part of the Withdrawal Agreement.

It's in Part 4 of the Agreement, articles 126 to 132.

No Deal exit = no Withdrawal Agreement = no Implementation Period

Bearbehind
I agree with your last post.
Unfortunately the 'UK superiority' bubble needs to be burst and accept that the UK is just another country.
This doesn't mean you can't be proud to be from the UK but it is no more special that Italy, or Portugal.

Gen Election will make things worse than now, I reckon. Would result in some Brexit MPs & more MPs from firmly remain parties, with a shrunken middle ground.

The unicorn I want is 2016 Leave voters to march en masse in the street demanding Revoke. Since unicorns don't exist, I am Ok about the current WA. It looks like very best option.

Unfortunately the 'UK superiority' bubble needs to be burst and accept that the UK is just another country.

Which goes back to us needing no deal for a reality check.

Great list Hester it's all so wrong.

The toxicity of the political and cultural environment here makes it apparently impossible for any of the actors or voters to behave pragmatically.

A wise leader would have negotiated a sensible consensual WA and had it passed in autumn 2016.

Lying referendum promises would constrain the govt afterwards as much as the lies in 2016 did

exactly - if the purpose of a P.V is to give parliament some clarity in which direction to go (which to my mind it is - it has nothing to do with trying to overturn the last result and is only necessary because of the deadlock) then there is simply no purpose in offering options that lack the clarity we need.

(again - doesn't mean they won't be stupid enough to offer it)

In my heart it needs to be no deal to shut the Leavers up as much as is possible.

But what about the Leavers who don't want no deal? They are also part of the side that 'won' - they are also 'the people' whose will is important. If they are offered an option of no deal vs remain, isn't their democratic will to leave with a deal (which - let's be honest - is what they all voted for back in 2016) being ignored? Why should they shut up if that is the choice on offer? They won the right to leave with a deal. No deal vs remain steals that from them.

See how the overton window has shifted? - Not only is it just remainer voices that count for nothing, but moderate leave voices are also being closed out, now. We need to shift it back. No one voted no deal in 2016 (no one was talking about jeopardising our place in the single market) no deal is possible to achieve but not to maintain and only further hamstrings the government. We need to stop discussing it as an option. We need to stop giving it that legitimacy.

Leavers I know still think a better deal is possible.

They still spout the old favourite ‘they need us more than we need them’

I know they’ll still blame no deal consequences on the nasty EU but I do think we need to go there to at least prove they don’t need us more than we need them.

Which goes back to us needing no deal for a reality check
How does everyone feel about that short fat man with dyed blond hair triggering the Civil Contingencies Act, and the powers he would have as a result?

More cabinet ministers piling on BJ:

David Gauke@DavidGauke

If your Brexit strategy involves:

(a) leaving without a deal but negotiating an FTA during the implementation period; or

(b) making unilateral use of Article 24 of GATT

you don’t have a credible Brexit strategy.

If your strategy involves both (a) and (b)🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️🤦🏻‍♀️

and far worse:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/104770/cabinet-ministers-tear-boris-johnsons-plan-no-deal-brexit

The row came as the Sunday Times revealed that Mr Johnson could face being ousted from the top job within 24 hours of becoming the next prime minister.

According to the paper,
Conservative chief whip Julian Smith told key figures in Mr Johnson's that there was a high likelihood that the leadership favourite would lose a Commons vote of no-confidence within a day of taking the job.

Two Tory MPs Guto Bebb and Philip Lee were named among those deemed “high-risk” on Mr Smith’s watchlist to defect from the party, a move that would destroy the Government’s majority in the Commons.

To be clear - I know that no deal is the default, it doesn't have to be an option. When I say we need to stop discussing it as an option - I mean we need to stop discussing it as something we might choose and aspire to achieve. We need to stop talking about it like it's something we should work towards ... but we can't ever forget that it is the horrible, inevitable consequence of not finding a way forward.

Conservative chief whip Julian Smith told key figures in Mr Johnson's that there was a high likelihood that the leadership favourite would lose a Commons vote of no-confidence within a day of taking the job.

It's too much of a gamble for me to actively hope BJ wins ... but good god do I want to see this happen!

If anything could - this would make the whole brexit debacle worthwhile.

But ... too much of a gamble, with way too much chance of it going horribly wrong, for me to want Boris to win, really.

Leavers I know still think a better deal is possible.

They still spout the old favourite ‘they need us more than we need them’

I know they’ll still blame no deal consequences on the nasty EU but I do think we need to go there to at least prove they don’t need us more than we need them.

I just don't think it's a good way to run a country - harming everybody - allowing people an opportunity to vote to harm everybody - just for a futile attempt at teaching a few million gasbags a lesson. (and they are a few million - 17 million leavers - only 5 million BXP voters)

Especially as - as you say - it doesn't matter how terrible the effects, they still won't learn. They'll still blame everyone but themselves. Vulnerable people will die - millions more plunged into poverty - opening the door to something much more politically extreme and dangerous.

There are a thousand reasons not to let people vote on no deal - rational, logical, evidence based, economical, ethical and even legal reasons not to do it. There is no good reason to offer it. The best reason is a bitter 'that'll show 'em' ... but we all know it won't.

I agree with everything you've posted this evening, pretzels. To me you talk sense!

I'd pay good money to see that Boris NC situation pan out, I can tell you!

There are a thousand reasons not to let people vote on no deal - rational, logical, evidence based, economical, ethical and even legal reasons not to do it.

But 3 years in that is not making a blind bit of difference to those who still want to leave.

Lidington et al need to understand most Tory party members dont use Twitter.

They need to get these points across a different way.

Interestingly, it looks like only the torygraph - who Johnson writes for - is still supportive of his bid.

I just dont know. I feel very low about it all.

I'm concentrating on what I can do at a local level.

Making plans for the foodbank, training to be a debt advisor, organising community meals.

Coz no deal is gonna be bad.

But 3 years in that is not making a blind bit of difference to those who still want to leave

And if they want to leave with a deal - that isn't a problem. Because we can offer them a way out of the EU - it's the W.A. They can have it, they just have to go out and tell parliament that's what they want.

If they want no deal then they just need to be ignored. You don't pander to people who are wrong - you ignore them. They want no deal - they cannot have it - they can only have 'no deal for now - working towards a deal later, which will still be shit and this time you probably won't get a say in whether to accept it or not.' That is the fundamental truth of the matter. It does not matter one iota if they understand and accept it or not. That just is.

For the past 6 years I have been determined to win the lottery. 6 years of failure has not stopped me from wanting it. Camelot are not just giving me the money because I want it, though. Reality and what we want are not always the same thing. Anyone who cannot accept that needs to be cut from the debate.

There's a Times article today with similar story to that politics home one BCF
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mps-plotting-to-make-boris-pm-for-just-one-day-br03hdsv9
Must be why they are testing the waters with proroguing HOC.

If Corbyn's agenda is Marxist, I'm not sure what it makes the Thatcher era when we had: robust taxation , free HE, comprehensive functioning and accountable state health and schools system, nationalised industries, excellent library system, adult literacy programmes, automatic welfare payments for the sick and unemployed, no one dying of cold and hunger in the streets etc etc.

The Labour Party's plans seem very modest when compared to the People's Republic of Thatcherania.

Difficult choice: crash out and martial law with a Kompromat at the helm or a Labour government.

{Which goes back to us needing no deal for a reality check.}
A 'conclusion' I came to over 6 months ago.
Simply 'revoke' would be relatively fine for most 'leavers' in the general public, especially if some tangible things were to be brought in, things that address the underlying cause of the public side of Brexit. Trouble is the ERG will kick into action and sabotage things because they won't get their windfalls and possible disaster capital gains, and the EU anti money jiggery will be in full effect.

But the die hard Leavers who still want to leave don’t give a shiny shite about anything other than immigration.

The sooner people acknowledge that the better.

it is just arrogant to think you can ignore those who want no deal.

As it stands, what they want is the default position.

it is just arrogant to think you can ignore those who want no deal
The majority of the population want to bring back capital punishment. We've ignored the 'hang em flog em' types quite happily for 70 years. For similar reasons to ignoring the so called 'concerned about immigration' no dealers.

{it is just arrogant to think you can ignore those who want no deal.}

Why? Those who want 'no deal' are happy to ignore the 48% who want to remain.
Remain is not a destructive process that deliberately disadvantages everybody in the UK, not just those eligible to vote, but the future generation will be blighted by leaving. The fact it is already happening before the UK has officially left is proof.

But capital punishment isn’t the default position is it?

We don’t hold the cards here.

France for one isn’t going to let us extend again without a bloody good plan.

it is just arrogant to think you can ignore those who want no deal.

5 million people voted for BXP or UKIP. 5 million. Out of 65 million. It is not arrogant to ignore them - or to tell them that their demands are nonsensical and impossible (they cannot have no deal forever - at what point will this 5 million decide a deal is OK?). The only reason anyone is giving them any hearing is because there are enough people in power who want no deal for their own disaster capitalist reasons - and the radicalised mob they have whipped up to support them shout the loudest. But they are still only 5 million. And no - the other 60 million - do not need to let themselves be held hostage to this tiny minority's impossible and harmful demands.
pretending that we do simply the shift that has occurred in the Overton window since 2016. Anyone who thinks these beliefs have any legitimacy or place in political discourse are on the same radicalised path the no dealers are treading. It is important we acknowledge what people really voted for in 2016 and how much the rhetoric has changed - and stand against it, not just bend to it as the easiest course of action under some misguided notion that that is 'democratic'.

As it stands, what they want is the default position.

I have said i know it is the default position. Which is why it is so incredibly important that in the very near future we find a way forward which will allow the UK to move on - in either direction - towards a long term solution. No deal is not a long term solution. Therefore it is pointless to us as a nation.

Why? Those who want 'no deal' are happy to ignore the 48% who want to remain.

Fine, pretend you can ignore them.

Won’t get you very far.