Leavers - how do you stomach Farage and co. / association with racism, fascism, xenophobia?

[SevenTimesSix]

Please no name-calling and abuse either way. I'm genuinely curious and normally don't post in the Brexit area - I'm not a super tough person and hate getting caught in the crossfire.

People may well have all kinds of reasons for wanting the UK to leave the EU. Some I can understand if not agree with. Others are baffling to me given information which is widely publicly available. I appreciate that we see the world differently and that many on both sides live in their own bubbles. There's plenty of other threads to take these things apart.

If I accept that not all, or even most, Leavers are racists or xenophobes, there's still no getting away from the fact that key figures in the Leave movement are outright racists or xenophobes (and some are proven liars on a grand destructive scale, although that's another story). They are not minority figures on the fringes. They are leaders and figureheads.

How can reasonable, civilised Leave supporters bear to be associated with these people? As well as personal behaviour and values, we as human beings do tend to judge others by the company they keep.

There seems to be such a big jump from worrying about the protection of UK borders or feeling that preservation of national sovereignty is under threat, to being prepared to stand up and be counted alongside a bunch of fascists.

I cannot imagine a single political issue which would make me prepared to do this.

If you're a regular person who just happens to want Brexit, how are you getting your head around this?

What I don't understand is how they slag off Corbyn for talking to the IRA and being anti-semitic, but when their own tribe exhibit such behaviour, they remain silent.

SevenTimesSix

If you're a regular person who just happens to want Brexit, how are you getting your head around this?

Perhaps you should come back with this question once the BBC have stopped inviting Nigel Farage onto their current affairs programmes and light entertainment shows, and when LBC Radio have cancelled The Nigel Farage Show - which has been broadcasting 4 or 5 nights a week for several years. Could it be that they have no evidence that Nigel Farage is a fascist, racist or xenophobe?

In the meantime - I shall be voting for The Brexit Party in the EU Elections as a protest vote and for The Conservative Party in the next General Election.

generally politicians are given airtime via BBC depends on parties representation the Brexit party UKIP have quite a lot of current MEPs and are leading in the polls so going on the remits they are probably due more air time than other parties
quote from BBC site

"Past performance at elections, consistent polling, and the number of candidates help decide how parties are allocated election broadcasts and coverage on political programmes, the head of BBC editorial policy explained."

interestingly the number 1 candidate for the Brexit party in Scotland is both black and gay he is likely to get a seat albeit the 6th of the 6 scottish seats, UKIP currently has 1 of the scottish seats but he is
not standing this time

I am not voting for them but like the OP I do not think you can dismiss the whole party as racist etc, there are undoubtedly racists in the party as all parties to a greater or lesser extent

For some people leavers, actually leaving is more important than who achieves this, as they will eventually be out of politics move on loss seat or whatever, just like some remainers will vote for a party that is pro-remain even though personally they do not like the candidate or other policies,
When people are voting on a single issue the issue is more important than the party, so the Brexit party might do very well in European elections as people what to reiterate their desire to leave but if a general election was the following week they would vote differently as more and different issues may have a different balance of importance to them
so someone might vote lib dem just now as best hope of remain but in a GE would not vote for them as they do not like their gender policy
or someone might vote Brexit party just now but at a GE revert back to Labour or Tory because of their views on the economy

What I don't understand is how they slag off Corbyn for talking to the IRA and being anti-semitic, but when their own tribe exhibit such behaviour, they remain silent

What I don't understand is how a lot of remainers can slag off Lib Dem's for their women's/trans stance, make a huge fuss about Brexit party funds (when Lib Dem's have taken donations from some very dubious sources) and come Thursday without hesitation they will be ticking that particular box in quite high numbers. Remainers do have other party choices.

As a leaver what party do people suggest I vote for? Or would you rather I stayed at home and I didn't exercise my right to vote? Rest assured it will be a cold day in hell before that happens

Out of interest what 'tribe' do you fall into then Peregrina seeing as you seem keen to categorise people? (I naively thought we had moved away from the whole tribal thing but it's looks like you're still keen on it)

The Brexit party is standing for one thing. Not to govern the country or to be MEPs but to act as a point of reference for those who believe the referendum result should have been honoured.

That’s why I will be voting for them.

I wonder cross the road to piss on them if they were on fire under normal circumstances but desperate times call for desperate measures.

The Remain 'tribe' of which I make no secret. Not sure that I have ever expressed an opinion here on trans issues, or abortion or whether the earth is flat. I don't care for Corbyn, either, which I don't make any secret of, but I got thoroughly sick of the anti Corbyn propaganda at the last election.

Missgiddypants hits the nail on the head I suspect for many people. Voting would be pretty different at a GE.

they slag off Corbyn for talking to the IRA

But they are OK with candidates (plural) who have refused to condemn IRA bomb attacks in the U.K.

There's a word for this ... I think it begins with h ...

I am absolutely not racist, obviously you only have my word for that

My concerns are about Democracy.

Nigel has a face I could happily slap, however I am 100% going to vote for the Brexit Party today.

I do not want to look forward to a world where I am ruled by people I have no chance of voting out. One world military, police and currency.

Chocolate makes a good point.

ruled by people I have no chance of voting out.

You’re literally voting in the European elections.

Or if you’re talking about other member states, are you annoyed you don’t get a vote in the US elections? The US is quite influential on the global stage and you don’t get a say in who is president.

I do not want to look forward to a world where I am ruled by people I have no chance of voting out.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

Personally, I see supporting the Brexit party as the safest step away from the far right gaining power. They're, internally, a rather disparate group in terms of beliefs but failure to deliver a meaningful separation of the United Kingdom from the European Union only produces a nucleus around which they can gather and, much more worryingly, garner support from those who would never otherwise back their more dangerous beliefs. On a personal note, I do not let the whims of racists, fascists and xenophobes dictate my political preferences and do not find it logical to vote in a direction that (I believe) will do lasting harm to the country in an attempt to spite them.

we as human beings do tend to judge others by the company they keep

Tribalism plays very nicely into the hands of the far right. Interpersonal Darwinism has honed their ability to sell their beliefs in a way that those left of centre have never required and they are gleefully waiting to extend a kind hand to those who feel unfairly scorned for feeling strongly about a specific issue.

However I vote, it is a SECRET ballot which means I won’t be “associated with” either tribe.

I make my decision based on my personal view of the problems of the day, homelessness, poverty, things like the murder of Jo Cox etc.

I’m not voting for a specific politician either, Corbyn, boris, Nigel or may. This is not about personalities.

"Could it be that they have no evidence that Nigel Farage is a fascist, racist or xenophobe?*

Unlikely, I'd say.

“I do not want to look forward to a world where I am ruled by people I have no chance of voting out.“

But you’re voting in the European elections....

I suspect it is more that people are thinking of it as a second referendum (and come Sunday night, you can bet that's how the results will be discussed on the BBC).

If Change UK had called themselves "revoke and remain" I wonder if they would be doing a lot better in the polls.

Lib Dems and Greens will only do so well because they are clear remain parties.

Conservative and Labour will do badly because their position is vague.

{I suspect it is more that people are thinking of it as a second referendum}

Which is of course incorrect because the process is to find 73? elected persons from the UK to represent the UK citizens in Brussels.
If the UK stays in the EU they will be required to take their positions in Brussels. If the UK leaves they will not be required.
The process is not directly related to a second referendum.

Personally, I see supporting the Brexit party as the safest step away from the far right gaining power.

Hmmm, are you trying to argue that if they gained power, they would make an even greater pig's ear of it than even May has managed to do, so would be rewarded by booting out at the next election? That has been the case with UKIP councillors - once elected they have mostly proved themselves totally useless and haven't lasted, but I think it's a dangerous argument.

Could it be that they have no evidence that Nigel Farage is a fascist, racist or xenophobe?

I am not an apologist for Farage in any way - I wish he'd bugger off to the US as he seems so keen on making the UK as like the bad bits of the US as possible. Can someone please offer him a job he can't refuse?

But I don't think there is any evidence that he is fascist, racist or xenophobic. It's trite to say he doesn't like the EU. And he doesn't like the NHS. And is a lazy hypocrite who took the EU's money and did sod all to helps his constituents. But that does not make him any of those three things.

The UKIP candidates on the other hand (and those delightful individuals who think it's fine to make rape threats)...

I do not want to look forward to a world where I am ruled by people I have no chance of voting out

But you’re voting in the European elections

Yes I was hoping that the penny might drop about those "unelected" bureaucrats, as we are now electing them. Sigh.

But I don't think there is any evidence that he is fascist, racist or xenophobic.

There is plenty of evidence for those who have eyes to see. He was criticised at school for going round singing 'Gas them all'. This was reported in various newspapers when he first came to prominence, and a quick google will find them. Who in recent European history has been gassed? It doesn't take much to put two and two together, but someone like Farage can disingenuously complain that he didn't know any Hitler youth songs, but the inference was pretty clear.

The Breaking Point poster that he stood in front of before the Referendum - again a copy of a Nazi poster. Totally irrelevant to the EU being Syrian refugees walking to Turkey which isn't in the EU. Again he will disingenuously lie his way out of it.

Don't forget that until recently Farage and UKIP were one and the same, so who laid the foundations for its racism and xenophobia?

Hmmm, are you trying to argue that if they gained power, they would make an even greater pig's ear of it than even May has managed to do, so would be rewarded by booting out at the next election?

Not at all, please do correct me if I'm wrong but I can't imagine even the most ardent Remain supporter having the handling of Brexit by a far right party to be the primary concern associated with said far right party gaining power in the Commons.

Don't forget that until recently Farage and UKIP were one and the same, so who laid the foundations for its racism and xenophobia?

Considering the lurch towards the far right upon his departure and his criticisms of its increasingly Islamophobic tendencies while quitting, it seems more like he is against racism and xenophobia. Perhaps a more accurate criticism would be that he might have stayed and fought against racism in the party but, equally, that could have provided support by virtue of his presence.

And don't forget that every vote for Farage's brexit party or UKIP is a vote for Vladimir Putin.

{it seems more like he is against racism and xenophobia}

More likely that his 'minders' were more careful not to let too much slip out. He is at least intelligent enough to keep the 'right' side of most laws, although dealings with money are rather more shadowy.
Stepping away from the really nasty elements is a 'smart' move but you have to consider that he is another 'make money for Farage' rather than a principled politician. There are plenty that are similar of course.
He is undoubtedly the 'mouthpiece' for a large number of others who seek to make great profits wherever possible which he attempts to do by being 'in your face' and just about reasonable but swerving off in different directions when the questions get serious.
Lying and hypocrisy are not illegal yet. The case against BoJo will be at least a little interesting.

Sorry Gronky, you fail to convince me about Farage. I think he's a nasty little racist, but he is the sort who knows how to wind others up to do his dirty work. He wouldn't have got the support for UKIP if it hadn't been for anti-immigration, which is usually encompasses racism.