Leavers - how do you stomach Farage and co. / association with racism, fascism, xenophobia?

[SevenTimesSix]

Please no name-calling and abuse either way. I'm genuinely curious and normally don't post in the Brexit area - I'm not a super tough person and hate getting caught in the crossfire.

People may well have all kinds of reasons for wanting the UK to leave the EU. Some I can understand if not agree with. Others are baffling to me given information which is widely publicly available. I appreciate that we see the world differently and that many on both sides live in their own bubbles. There's plenty of other threads to take these things apart.

If I accept that not all, or even most, Leavers are racists or xenophobes, there's still no getting away from the fact that key figures in the Leave movement are outright racists or xenophobes (and some are proven liars on a grand destructive scale, although that's another story). They are not minority figures on the fringes. They are leaders and figureheads.

How can reasonable, civilised Leave supporters bear to be associated with these people? As well as personal behaviour and values, we as human beings do tend to judge others by the company they keep.

There seems to be such a big jump from worrying about the protection of UK borders or feeling that preservation of national sovereignty is under threat, to being prepared to stand up and be counted alongside a bunch of fascists.

I cannot imagine a single political issue which would make me prepared to do this.

If you're a regular person who just happens to want Brexit, how are you getting your head around this?

UKIP = unelectable and irrelevant.

This i can agree with.... brexit party... well i wonder

There you go noble - TR represents a minority, a tiny minority of people. No one like that even close to where I live, if there was I'd call them out on it. He's nothing to do with me, has no influence on me or where I live. I'd crush people like that and so would most of my neighbours.

You're surely not suggesting that because people like that exist I need to let them influence me? People like TR have existed in the UK and other EU countries well before the EU - they might get more support in EU countries but they really don't get much of a look in here in the UK.

Hence the concern...

Andyes I do know that right Tati - it goes on a lot more on the Continent than it does here. People afraid of the UK leaving the EU are doing more to fuel fear and fan the flames than anyone else.

Don't give the fire any air and it can't burn.

hate you say that Tommy Robinson represents a tiny minority of people and presumably you agree his views are abhorrent. Yet he was talking to masses of Leavers at the Brexit March.

do you really think that we will all stand by and watch Facism, Racism and all that comes with that take over our Society?

That’s my point, plenty of Leavers stood and watched.

Fascism is essentially about the death of democracy.

As soon as you ignore a democratic vote your sticking a knife in the back of democracy. But how many remainers are actively advocating just that.

I'll put money of more remainers contributing to the death of democracy through supporting a second referendum than leavers support Tommy Robinson

I'm not really up for debating nor deending tonight, being a mere human, an actual human, that tried to appeal to the humanity that remain supporters purport to have the monopoly on.

I may have marched in London Town from a teen to 40, but I don't now because my domestic responsibilities are too great. The vast majority of people don't go on Marches.

So people on a March listened to a speaker without rioting, throwing milkshakes or whatever else they were supposed to do in your view.

The majority of people don't march; but don't let that confuse you into thinking that people like TR (don't give him airtime and he'll fade away) will get away with that shit in any more places than a very few very small, localized situations.

I try not to get offended but really being likened to a supporter of Hitler, or someone that would allow things like Concentration Camps to happen is offensive to me.

I am not sure whether anyone has likened you to a supporter of Hitler., HateIs. Many Germans were not, and at the last election his party had actually lost votes. The trouble was that many people didn't wake up to what he was doing until it was too late. Some were then afraid and went along with the crowd, and others paid the price for opposing him.

BTW Concentration camps were invented by the British during the Boer War. Even Hitler's original camps were considered crude rather than brutal, but there was a gradual creep into barbarism.

So people on a March listened to a speaker without rioting, throwing milkshakes or whatever else they were supposed to do in your view.

Rioting? Throwing milkshakes? Is that all you can think of?

How about “I’m not staying to listen to that wanker, I’m off home”?

Apparently Leavers wouldn’t stand by and listen to racists. Now Leavers who did are apparently a minority of Leavers and not representative.

I wouldn't cross the road to piss on them if they were on fire under normal circumstances but desperate times call for desperate measures

If the UK doesn't leave the EU for whatever reason (PV, Revoke, Global event etc) these people will be representing you and the UK for the next 5 years in the worlds largest trading bloc.

The Brexit party cannot deliver Brexit in any shape or form, only the UK Govt can.... it is those ministers and MPs you need to be lobbying, not voting in people who you appear to loath.

Thanks for the history lesson Pergrina but it's not necessary I'm already very well aware of how that all came about.

noble I've already explained that most people don't go on (London-centric) Marches. You went on a Leave March (I thought hardly anyone went on those), heard one of the speakers spouting shit, watched the crowd and saw they didn't say anything.

Hopefully you did then - shouted out, called him a Wanker (like I would have done if I was there) - or did you stand by like a dumb fuck too.

Many Germans were not, and at the last election his party had actually lost votes.

Not sure thats a complete representation there the downswing was only 0.68% however they gained 4 seats and still had the highest percentage of the vote

However what was interesting was a recent bbc radio interview with a everyday german chap who happened to end up helping to shelter i high up Nazi commander for a couple of years after the end of the war. He vigorously denounced Hilter and Nazism. However the reported noticed that on the bookshelf behind was a miniture photo of Hitler....

Not that that's overly relevant to this discussion

(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March_1933_German_federal_election)

The Brexit party cannot deliver Brexit in any shape or form, only the UK Govt can....

Then with the melt down in the Tory party and a feeble Opposition under Corbyn, there is no saying that a GE would solve anything. I would be surprised if it wasn't another hung Parliament, and I would be very surprised now if any other party would contemplate going into Coalition. Probably the only exception to this would be a genuine cross party Coalition, like the war time one.

The Brexit party cannot deliver Brexit in any shape or form, only the UK Govt can....

Depends on which parties are in coalition

GreenEggsHamandChips

What you are saying is illogical, how has the 'vote been ignored? where have you been???
the Govt has tried for 3 years to get Parliament to agree to how we leave the EU - without destroying the economy or the GFA... they can't do it because they have no majority.... & ERG/DUP MPs blocked the WA, prob because they don't want brexit, they know it wont work.

How the heck is a democratic vote the "death of democracy?" you are just spouting a soundbite.... a PV is democratic by its very nature!

Any new vote would be 3.5 years after the last one, wanting to consult the public again is democracy in action, just as we have GE's every 4 or 5 years.
If people vote for no-deal, then i'll emigrate and you can watch a 1st world country become a 3rd world one.

OP - To me Farage is the Oswald Mosley of the 21st Century.

I've already explained that most people don't go on (London-centric) Marches.

Then you are wrong. I myself saw coaches which had come from Devon and Cornwall, which meant people starting out either in the early morning or the night before. I met people who had flown from France and Germany.

there are sadly plenty of racist figures attached to the Brexit argument- I don’t personally think Farage is one of them and think it’s good he moved away from UKIP as soon as they adopted that vile Tommy Robinson as a role model.

It’s sad that in the UK 2019 you can’t say the level of immigration is unsustainable it needs reigning in and thus an open door policy isn’t a good idea- without being labelled a racist.

To me Farage is the Oswald Mosley of the 21st Century.

To me too.

So you don't think using a picture of Syrian refugees to talk about the EU being at breaking point is racist? Is it only racist when the people being objected to have black or brown skins?

It’s sad that in the UK 2019 you can’t say the level of immigration is unsustainable it needs reigning in and thus an open door policy isn’t a good idea- without being labelled a racist

Well, i think its unsustainable too BUT that leaving the EU isn't the answer.
You need to look at why the UK attracts so many migrants and why uk industry & govt doesn't train its own workers (we also have an aging workforce too) these reasons will still be here post brexit, we can address these whilst in the EU, without wrecking our economy.

Farages posters full of african/middle eastern faces and Breaking Point written over it was a poster from the nazi era.

GreenEgg - about 15 years ago I did a short-term rent of a very rural cottage inherited by a Londoner from her parents. The parents gave a very good front to the locals - going as far as calling a tree-carving "Churchill".

Through the long winter nights I read through the books - and the various newspaper cuttings inside them; they were Facists, supporters of Mosely and the man's "war career" involved being a Merchant Seaman on the Dunedin (a shameful episode in UK history).

They had fooled everyone - but me, unfortunately they were dead. It's not the overt one's you have to watch out for.

OnlyFoolsnMothers

I quite agree.

jasjas1973

Its undemocratic because democracy only works because you stand by the majority vote whether you win or lose. That is the nature of democracy.

If remain wins next time why should that be the last vote? Best of 3. If leave wins a second time do you go for best of 5.

Or do you hop in and out depending on who wins the last vote. Im not sure the EU would be too impressed by that

Also last election every party stood on a leave manifesto. Essentially every party has said sod what you voted for we dont agree so we will block it.

When you have mps that are elected on one promise and do the complete opposite it is deeply undemocratic.

To clarify i agree with the immigration cap bit

So you don't think using a picture of Syrian refugees to talk about the EU being at breaking point is racist

Or commenting that people have a right to be concerned if Romanians move in next door.

No, every party did not stand on a Leave manifesto. The two major parties which did have Leave in their manifestos failed to win.

Whatever else, May has tried to deliver a form of Brexit, even though she has come up with a solution that no one wants.