Leavers - how do you stomach Farage and co. / association with racism, fascism, xenophobia?

[SevenTimesSix]

Please no name-calling and abuse either way. I'm genuinely curious and normally don't post in the Brexit area - I'm not a super tough person and hate getting caught in the crossfire.

People may well have all kinds of reasons for wanting the UK to leave the EU. Some I can understand if not agree with. Others are baffling to me given information which is widely publicly available. I appreciate that we see the world differently and that many on both sides live in their own bubbles. There's plenty of other threads to take these things apart.

If I accept that not all, or even most, Leavers are racists or xenophobes, there's still no getting away from the fact that key figures in the Leave movement are outright racists or xenophobes (and some are proven liars on a grand destructive scale, although that's another story). They are not minority figures on the fringes. They are leaders and figureheads.

How can reasonable, civilised Leave supporters bear to be associated with these people? As well as personal behaviour and values, we as human beings do tend to judge others by the company they keep.

There seems to be such a big jump from worrying about the protection of UK borders or feeling that preservation of national sovereignty is under threat, to being prepared to stand up and be counted alongside a bunch of fascists.

I cannot imagine a single political issue which would make me prepared to do this.

If you're a regular person who just happens to want Brexit, how are you getting your head around this?

But I don't think there is any evidence that he is fascist, racist or xenophobic.
What??? That has to win the prize for one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on here.

If you listen to what Farage says at his 'roadshows' he starts off with things that are essentially true, then winds his audience into thinking he is one of them and gradually spouting more populist ideas but somehow fails to mention the 'downsides' and that the supply of money (to the punters) is not infinite. Then 'puff' he is gone before they work out that it is impossible. If seriously questioned (rare) he veers off into diversionary tactics to avoid answering.

If seriously questioned (rare) he veers off into diversionary tactics to avoid answering.

As seen on the recent Andrew Marr show - for once he was questioned, and he started to have a tantrum.

He is undoubtedly the 'mouthpiece' for a large number of others who seek to make great profits wherever possible

If we're going to delve into shadowy fringe conspiracy theories, why wouldn't his sinister overlords have used their baleful power to expel the politically undesirable from UKIP and maintained control over the only party to have beaten both Labour and the Conservatives in a national election in over 100 years? Your assessment presumes a certain schizophrenia to the intelligence of these alleged profiteers.

Sorry Gronky, you fail to convince me about Farage.

That's quite alright, everyone's entitled to their opinion, I appreciate you taking the time to discuss why you hold those beliefs.

The Referendum wasn't an election - it was a badly conducted national opinion poll, and no one took any seats anywhere. When standing for Office in the UK Farage has always failed. The only UKIP person to get re-elected under the UKIP banner was Carswell, having originally been a Tory, and then even he left UKIP.

The Referendum wasn't an election

Awfully sorry for the confusion, UKIP received more votes than Labour or the Conservatives in the 2014 European Parliament elections.

desperate times call for desperate measures

In desperate times how will a bunch of far right xenophobic opportunists help?

It’s like hitting the bottle to deal with stress. Only make things worse.

Farage is good friends with Aaron Banks, who is known to have significant 'interests' in Russia. The Russians are well known for playing 'the long game' and happy to do whatever is necessary. They are also not stupid. The Skripal incident rather convenient at the time. Sending a couple of guys to look at Salisbury cathedral. Bits of lies here, delays there tying up a lot of UK police resources etc. Just a constant 'needling' and reminders that the Russians can attack effectively if they wished.
A cheap 'awayday' for a couple of guys is a lot more economic than piling tanks into the Ukraine and elsewhere.
Letting UKIP degenerate into a 'nasty party' also helps distract attention from elsewhere while keeping the pressure up. Of course Batten and Robinson are ultimately 'expendable' if their tactics stop producing results. Hiring those with 'thugish' tendencies is pretty cheap.
Farage was/is also a gold trader, working in a scene that is unconventional to most others and undoubtedly work with different rules to normal trading.

Personally, I see supporting the Brexit party as the safest step away from the far right gaining power. They're, internally, a rather disparate group in terms of beliefs but failure to deliver a meaningful separation of the United Kingdom from the European Union only produces a nucleus around which they can gather and, much more worryingly, garner support from those who would never otherwise back their more dangerous beliefs.

You see supporting the hardest right party in the U.K. the way to stop the hard right gaining power?

Failing to deliver Brexit gives a bunch of middle-aged + gammons something to whine about in the pub, that’s about it.

I do not let the whims of racists, fascists and xenophobes dictate my political preferences

You already have, but you’re apparently too confused to notice.

Farage and members of the ERG make money by rocking the boat and influencing the money markets. Knowing when to 'invest' (bet) on the Pound rising or falling against other currencies can be a steady earner (JRM about £7 Million last year), helped if you have friends inside the markets and can influence the 'drama; that is Brexit.
May's speech in Salzburg caused the Pound to fall by over 1% during the 10 minutes of the speech.

He’s mates with Aaron, Robert Mercer, and he’d like to think, Trump.

Anyone who doesn’t grasp he has dodgy money behind him has not been reading the papers.

Letting UKIP degenerate into a 'nasty party' also helps distract attention from elsewhere while keeping the pressure up.

Why let it degenerate in the first place and why risk splitting the vote?

You see supporting the hardest right party in the U.K. the way to stop the hard right gaining power?

In what way does the Brexit Party fall into the category of 'hardest right'?

Undoubtedly true as far as the last EU election went initially, but before long the UKIP members had begun to desert the party. It's a pity he never bothered to discharge his responsibilities at the EU Parliament, but is more than happy to take a salary.

The comparison with Labour and the Tories over a hundred years is pretty silly - a hundred years ago Labour was only just beginning to come to prominence first gaining Office in the 1920s. The first direct EU elections were only held in 1979, and even then the electoral districts were different from the ones they are today.

Your arguments are very Faragist - they sound plausible until they are examined closely and then they can be seen not to stand up. In the General Election the following year, Farage himself again failed to take a seat, and UKIP was comfortably beaten in terms of % as well as seats by both Labour and Tory. 2017 and The Tories and Labour took 80% of the votes. Whether that was a vote for Brexit depends on whether you were a Leaver or a Remainer.

But apparently the local elections where the Faragists hadn't got themselves organised to stand, an absolute thrashing of the Tories and to a lesser extent Labour was a vote for Brexit.

Because it’s basically just a more electable version of UKIP.

Its a massive mistake to assume brexit party is hard right.

2010 election UKIP stole votes from BOTH conservative and Labour. The hard right elements seem to have stayed more with UKIP. Brexit party has gone back to its one issue routes. That transverses left and right.

{Why let it degenerate in the first place and why risk splitting the vote?}
Very easy when there is no real plan to 'win' anything.
If he were elected as an MEP (again) or even as an MP or PM in the UK, he might be expected to work and have a plan. As I said, he makes money on causing political unrest, which also helps Mr Putin too as although he is unlikely to declare war on any of the EU countries he sees the security of Russia at stake.
Farage bouncing around as a 'useful idiot' makes him plenty of money without having to do serious work. Sponsored dinners, hotels and flights. A few drinks with 'friends' and leave.

a hundred years ago Labour was only just beginning to come to prominence first gaining Office in the 1920s. The first direct EU elections were only held in 1979, and even then the electoral districts were different from the ones they are today.

What a marvelous collection of red herrings.

In the General Election the following year, Farage himself again failed to take a seat, and UKIP was comfortably beaten in terms of % as well as seats by both Labour and Tory.

I don't foresee, with the eventual enactment of some form of meaningful Brexit, UKIP or the Brexit Party gaining control of the House of Commons. My points were in relation to a hypothetical conspiracy theory where Farage is apparently some sort of agent of shadowy powers. Sorry for the confusion.

Because it’s basically just a more electable version of UKIP.

More electable = more (indeed, most) right wing?

In the General Election the following year, Farage himself again failed to take a seat, and UKIP was comfortably beaten in terms of % as well as seats by both Labour and Tory.

Hmmm.... this isnt a straight forward analysis through. David Cameron offered a referendum. Many ukip voters were scared to split the tory vote, a referendum meant they could vote conservative.

I understand that for many posters here it seems so easy to fling about words such as racist and fascist to certain individuals and the teeniest minority of 'extremists' that exist in our society.

To those that so easily cast those words towards anyone that voted Leave in the Ref or for an obvious Leave Party in the EU elections today, do you really think that we will all stand by and watch Facism, Racism and all that comes with that take over our Society?

I know that I won't. If I ever I see anything like that going on (last time was about 15 years ago in the SE) I say something and act on it. I marched on ANL protests in the 1970s and that won't change.

I try not to get offended but really being likened to a supporter of Hitler, or someone that would allow things like Concentration Camps to happen is offensive to me.

Those things could only happen once 'sectors' of society are de-humanized and that is what so many here tend to do - de-humanize people who support Leaving the EU.

Heed the lessons of history that you try and teach yourselves.

A good by-product of all this Brexitosis is that so many are voting Green, when they wouldn't have considered it before. A result in my book, environmental destruction is what we should be fearing the most and I don't need Granny EU to guide me on that.

To those that so easily cast those words towards anyone that voted Leave in the Ref or for an obvious Leave Party in the EU elections today, do you really think that we will all stand by and watch Facism, Racism and all that comes with that take over our Society?

Tommy Robinson speaking at the Brexit March?

2010 election UKIP stole votes from BOTH conservative and Labour

It’s a fundamental mistake not to understand the hard right foundations of Brexit party. 14 of 17 UKIP MEPs defected to it.

You’re making the same mistake as Lexiters who ended up in bed supporting a hard right government because they simply failed to understand the politics, and hidden agendas, of Leave.

UKIP = unelectable and irrelevant.

To those that so easily cast those words towards anyone that voted Leave in the Ref or for an obvious Leave Party in the EU elections today, do you really think that we will all stand by and watch Facism, Racism and all that comes with that take over our Society?

You’re doing a very good job thus far. EU citizens flung into uncertainty. and anxiety. EU citizens leaving the U.K. fuelling crisis in the NHS. Increase in xenophobia and racism. Increase in rhetoric of intolerance, aggression and nationalism. Increase in abuse of MPs.

There’s far more to fascism than Nazism - take a look at Italy and Spain. But you know that right?