Leavers rejoice

[Coppersulphate]

The Brexit Party are doing really well in the polls. I just hope they do as well in the election.
I think their slogan should be "Tell them again".
I would like to see a clean sweep of Brexiteers but I know that is not going to happen.
I have sent off my postal vote.

Portia, there is no reason why the doctors and nurses from the EU 27 should return home.

European medical staff either not coming to the UK or are leaving because they are fed up of the UK government's attitude to them IS Brexit related.

The well mannered response from Leavers to this and my own statements: rubbish.

There is another alternative which is much more appealing. It is that we sign nothing and just leave without any deal

If you honestly believe that is still a possibility, how do you justify the fact we could have done so TWICE and didn’t?

Mumsnet is also full of posters who have never said anything like what confused just posted

@Coppersulphate , if we leave with No Deal, I am ready because I AMA prepper. But, as a prepper, I would only help people in real life who would be useful to me . The others can go fuck themselves. Is that what you think too? What a lovely country you will have created.

Portia, there is no reason why the doctors and nurses from the EU 27 should return home.

You must then tell the management of the Oxford hospitals, that their worries are unfounded, that they have imagined that Eu staff are not coming and existing ones are leaving. Clearly the management were misguided when they have even tried an overseas recruitment drive to places like the Philippines. They just need to wave a Leavers Brexit wand and whoosh the staff are there in place.

My friend is a nursing recruiter they are losing EU staff at a rate of knots

They are looking elsewhere but estimate that it will be at least 3 years and the staff will be of a slightly lower grade (still just as competent and trained but their English won't be quite so good)

those self serving idiots we call MPs and who are determined to stop Brexit.

Er? What? As opposed to those self serving idiots who are determined to enforce (a still undefined and unplanned) Brexit ?

those self serving idiots we call MPs and who are determined to stop Brexit.

Have Rees-Mogg, Davis, Fox, Boris Johnson, Gove, Vey, Leasdom stood down as MPs then? Their stupidity might be stopping Brexit but it's not for want of desire on their behalf.

My friend is a nursing recruiter they are losing EU staff at a rate of knots

Look.
Loss of staff= shrinking of healthcare provision.
Shrinking healthcare provision= savings in GDP expenditure.

The current government want the NHS to shrink.So does the Faragit party.

From an expenditure pov It's an inadvertent bonus of this whole clusterfuck.

Your last sentence is quite difficult to read.
I presume that was intended for me.

I apologise, Sycamorish,

Not voting for parties that openly include environmental protection in their policies can't easily be decoded as an expression of a desire to protect the environment.

I meant that if you are trying to express your wishes in ways that are decodable within the voting system available in the UK, it is perhaps unwise to presume that in voting for a party which has never shown any desire to protect the environment, you are demonstrating that you are keen for the environment to be protected. It's like voting for the Tories and then being surprised that they're not favourable to trade unionism.

For example:
Voting for the Green Party expresses a desire for the environment to be protected.
Voting for the Brexit Party, whose leader denies climate change, does not express a desire for the environment to be protected (although that may be what you want).

{LeClerc,
There is another alternative which is much more appealing. It is that we sign nothing and just leave without any deal.
Let's hope that is what happens.}

You obviously have a difficulty understanding plain English. You are not alone however.
Mr Junker, Barnier and many others in the EU said two sentences in December, and have repeated it consistently.
The WA is the ONLY departure document and it will not be reopened.
Secondly, that there will be no trade negotiations until the WA is signed. The PD which also needs signing can be adjusted however.

The leaders of 27 countries, representing around 450 Million people are saying this, and personally I believe them.
On the basis that EU negotiators are comfortable with holding the USA, China and Russian trades negotiators at bay, I don't rate the UK's chances as particularly high.

I presume you realise that having no trade with the EU will make many in the UK rather hungry and attempts to try and ship in the necessary foods and everything else will bankrupt the UK with the sheer expense.
Further, most of the trade the UK does currently with other countries are in conjunction with the EU and will have to be renegotiated which of course the EU can block until the WA is signed.
Basically the UK has it's hands and feet nailed to the floor.

Portia there is no reason why the nurses and doctors from the EU 27 should return home

Perhaps in the present climate they wouldn't want to stay, I run a small business and have already had an employee hounded out of the Country merely because she's Polish, and perhaps trained nurses are not so eager to come here because they think they're not wanted or appreciated, how the UK is perceived in Europe cannot be helping and that little racist farridge is stirring the pot vigorously to make things worse!

Just spotted this in Health Service Journal - sorry, can't link - you might have to register to read it.

"Exclusive: NHS trusts dismiss Brexit impact on staff retention"

"By Nick Carding 20 March 2019"

"Brexit puzzle"

"NHS trusts are not expecting disruption to services caused by EU staff leaving because of Brexit, according to analysis by HSJ."

"Indicative data (see bottom of story) obtained through the Freedom of Information Act reveals only a small number of trusts have seen a reduction in their EU workforce since the referendum, with more trusts instead reporting an increase in the number of EU nationals joining since June 2016."

"As part of preparations for a no-deal Brexit, all trusts were told to send self-assessments of the impact of a no-deal Brexit on their workforce and non-clinical goods and services."

"HSJ has obtained details of the self-assessments from around a third of all trusts, including acute, community, mental health and ambulance organisations.The trusts released the information despite an attempt by the Department of Health and Social Care to stop them from publishing the details."

"The remaining 150 or so trusts have either refused HSJ’s FOI request or not responded at all."

"Of the 72 trusts which responded with information from their self-assessments, 49 trusts said there had been no evidence of EU staff leaving because of Brexit, and that there was little or no risk of services being impacted by a potential shortfall of EU staff."

"Several of the 49 trusts reported an increase in the number of EU employees since 2016."

"These included" :

Guy’s and St Thomas’ Foundation Trust, which employed 2,068 staff in January 2019 compared to 1,615 in June 2016 (an increase of 28 per cent)

University Hospitals Birmingham FT, which reported a rise in EU nationals working at the trust from 829 (January 2016) to 1,056 (February 2019)

Oxford University Hospitals FT, which reported an 8.8 per cent increase in EU nationals employed at the trust from 1,431 in March 2016 to 1,557 in January 2019

"Western Sussex Hospitals and Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals trusts, both of which said its number of consultants, ancillary staff, and “qualified middle tier staff such as band 5 nurses” had improved since 2016."

"A number of trusts also said they employed so few EU nationals that there was no risk of services being impacted by a potential shortfall of EU staff."

These included:

"Northumberland Tyne and Wear FT, which said it has “no evidence of higher turnover among EU nationals than the rest of our workforce”, and therefore “significant workforce risks are not anticipated”

"East Midlands Ambulance Service Trust, which has “ascertained there is no perceived impact at the present time and no impact is expected when the UK leaves the EU”

"Northern Devon Healthcare Trust, which said “no specific service has been identified as unduly affected by a potential future shortfall of EU nationals”

"2gether FT and Gloucestershire Care Services Trust, which both said the impact on its workforces would be “negligible given the small numbers of EU staff employed in Gloucestershire and Herefordshire”

"Eighteen trusts only provided workforce numbers to HSJ, but did not say if there had been an increase or reduction in EU staff in the last two years."

"The government has said that all EU nationals currently working in the UK will be allowed to stay indefinitely, as long as their application for “settled or pre-settled status” is accepted by the Home Office."

"Plenty of trusts said they would pay the £65 cost per application of their staff, before the government reversed the charge."

"But five trusts nevertheless reported a reduction of EU staff in the last two years, though they could not confirm the departures were linked to Brexit"

Hurray! More cut and paste spectaculars from Clavinova ! Which nobody reads. What with it being facts and that. More feelz needed to be properly in the gang.

Coppersulphate
Just read your post about the Guardian from last night - that's fine.

bellinisurge
Hurray! More cut and paste spectaculars from Clavinova! Which nobody reads.

What is it Leave voters are rejoicing about again?

SacrebleuLondres
They are rejoicing that someone with even less of a plan than the Tory, or even Labour government looks to be doing well in the polls.

Very strange that they were reporting desperate staff shortages only a couple of weeks back then in Oxford.

Oxford University Hospitals FT, which reported an 8.8 per cent increase in EU nationals employed at the trust from 1,431 in March 2016 to 1,557 in January 2019

What is needed here, as anyone who has done a 'How to lie with statistics course' is how the increase spread out between March 2016 before the Referendum, when Cameron expected to win, and January 2019 when the Brexit date was looming, plus what has happened in the 4 months since January. Without this analysis, we don't know whether this increase happened before the Referendum, or whether it has been a steady increase. The fact that the Management are now getting very worried about staff leaving might just be a reflection of totally incompetent management, or it might be that the numbers leaving have now accelerated.

"The government has said that all EU nationals currently working in the UK will be allowed to stay indefinitely, as long as their application for “settled or pre-settled status” is accepted by the Home Office."

Windrush - how many people will have full confidence in the Home Office after that? Of course, back in 2016 although we knew about May's Hostile Environment, we didn't know about the Windrush scandal.

"But five trusts nevertheless reported a reduction of EU staff in the last two years, though they could not confirm the departures were linked to Brexit"

Yes, there are so many other things it's far more likely to be

I read what Clavinova cut and pasted, including the fact that 2/3 of Trusts didn't answer.

I can admit that Oxford is an expensive place to live, and the local Health service unions are trying to get London weighting extended to the area simply because house prices, both buying and letting, are high. Set that against the fact that its considered a desirable place to live with world class hospitals.

And yes, I live in the area, so I don't need to cut and paste to find out my 'facts'.

Interesting Peregrina , I also live in the area and use those hospitals.
Living in the area does not make you knowledgeable.

Peregrina and LeClerc,

Clarinova is right. Surely you can't dismiss the experts, now, can you.?

I was in one of the Oxford hospitals on Sunday and they don't appear understaffed to me.