What are your alternatives to the backstop to get the WA through Parliament?

[bellinisurge]

Urgh! Not this again. Assume I already think that.

But

I voted Remain. I'll accept a Brexit that means we don't mess with GFA. The WA - as flawed as it is - does that. What else you got - specifically on the Ireland/UK border?

My local community FB is full of Yaxley Lennon support. I can only hope those are a few noisy wankers . I know that there is a majority for Brexit at least in my area. I want to know what is better than WA .

So, HateIsNotGood, as it is so quiet, who do you think the UK should suck up to when it leaves, the USA or China?
How well do you think the UK negotiators will get on 'demanding' equal status with either Washington or Beijing?
How will the UK ensure that trade with China is on decent terms when the Chinese have very definite 'China First' policies that actively disadvantage external investors and industry working within China.
Similarly the USA, many of their regulations are distinctly 'intolerant' to incomers.

Your comment to Peregrina, if you are happy with most laws as they are now, why all the fuss about leaving?

When I talk about Leavers, I am mainly thinking of the politicians in charge, who are the noisiest but haven't come up with any constructive suggestions in almost three years. They constantly tell us what they don't want, but not what they do, other than it's all so easy.

Where MNers come in, is it would be good to hear what action they have taken to make sure that their elected representatives are doing their jobs. OK we now hear that you HateIs don't think many laws need changing, but those that do they will be easily amended. Well maybe this wasn't part of the Leave propaganda which spoke to you, but for many it was 'Make our own Laws', so by implication there must somewhere be a long list of laws they don't like which were imposed upon them.

@bellinisurge THERE IS CURRENTLY NO GFA COMPLIANT TECHNOLOGICAL SOLUTION

As the EU has already admitted, they will need something in place eventually. And so will we. So we will need some sort of border infrastructure, even just an ANPR camera at every crossing point. This is not GFA compliant.

This isn't correct I'm afraid. There already is ANPR tracking right through the border from Northern Ireland to the Republic. If you're caught speeding in Dublin with a Northern Ireland registered car, the fine will be sent to your Northern Ireland address.

There is nothing in the Belfast Agreement about border technology, or about membership of the single market and customs union. The EU isn't a signatory to the agreement. It does not state that either the UK or the Republic of Ireland needs to be a member of the EU.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf

The only alternative I can think of is reunification of Ireland. But that would obviously be far more unlikely than just revoking A50.

As Theresa May has now found to her cost, blabbing slogans is the easy bit. Take back control, Brexit means Brexit, blab, blab, blab.

At some stage someone on the Leaver side has to start doing some proper work - elected representatives, and those noisy captains of industry which think that Brexit will be good for the country are the ones I mean.

@AgentProvocateur - walk around England and Wales, haha. I'm my part of Scotland many towns have a Riding of the Marches once a year, a horse ride which was historically around the boundaries of the area to make sure they were protected. Your post sounds similar, albeit rather time consuming!

Revoke article 50. Only sensible option.

We won't have to change many of our laws because if we want to sell anything into the EU we will have to comply with EU law. The whole thing is complete nonsense. Unless the point of leaving was for us to be able to import a load of inferior goods and food that's deemed unfit for consumption in the rest of Europe, sell inferior goods to countries outside the EU and pay people from the developing world poorly to come and work here to the delight of all the non racist leave voters

@SuckingDieselFella , you aren't talking about border control there. You are talking about mutual traffic enforcement. There's a difference.
@HateIsNotGood - if Leavers don't want to answer my genuine question that speaks volumes. I've said many times that I can accept Brexit if it doesn't mess with GFA. I'm surely the kind of Remain voter Leavers should be talking to. If Leavers can't talk to me they really don't want to win people over. They just like the argy bargy. Do people get off on it or something?

As both me and DS have found to our cost, you can even be chased up in the UK for speeding in France. It's most annoying, when you were only just over the limit! Now I don't know if that will be a benefit of Brexit - that you can speed with impunity in other countries and get off scot free.

Leavers' greatest fear should be losing the DUP to Remain. DUP loves the union more than Brexit. And it loves Brexit.

@bellinisurge It was you who referred to ANPR. You said "So we will need some sort of border infrastructure, even just an ANPR camera at every crossing point. This is not GFA compliant." Numberplate tracking has already existed for some years. It isn't just for speeding fines, it's also used to detect criminal activity such as smuggling. No-one on either side of the border has complained that it is not "GFA compliant". Can you please explain why border infrastructure is not GFA compliant? There is a link to the agreement in my post above. Which section of the GFA does it contravene, please?

So is there a ANPR camera at every crossing point on the border, asking for a friend

Any infrastructure used on the border to mark a border creates a border. It will need protecting from people who are rather upset at the idea of creating a border. Creating a marker between the North and the Republic. And protection needs protecting.
Do you seriously think that every border crossing on the border can be monitored without some sort of infrastructure at the moment. Maybe in the future we can manage without.
Do you think people are making this up just to piss you off?

Because it makes the leavers think they've "won", and that's all they're bothered about.
Absolute bollocks. I voted leave and I'll be furious if we get a customs union - it's basically EU membership without admitting to it.

{Absolute bollocks. I voted leave and I'll be furious if we get a customs union}

So what are you going to do about it, stamp your feet petulantly?

"Any infrastructure used on the border to mark a border creates a border."

There has been a border between Northern Ireland (not "the North", by the way) for 100 years. Brexit didn't create it. You seem confused about the difference between a customs border and a border between two sovereign states.

"It will need protecting from people who are rather upset at the idea of creating a border. Creating a marker between the North and the Republic."

Are you seriously suggesting that Brexit should be decided by terrorists?

"And protection needs protecting.
Do you seriously think that every border crossing on the border can be monitored without some sort of infrastructure at the moment. Maybe in the future we can manage without.
Do you think people are making this up just to piss you off?"

No, I don't think this. I've no idea where you got this from. Monitoring every intersection wouldn't be possible. But the border is already monitored by ANPR technology. HMRC have stated that he current electronic technology is sufficient for customs and excise purposes. Are you suggesting we shouldn't use it in case terrorists get upset?

You stated that border infrastructure isn't "GFA compliant". Can you explain why, please? If you can't answer this question it will look like you're making it up.

There has been a border between Northern Ireland (not "the North", by the way) for 100 years. Brexit didn't create it

This is true. But the way the GFA functions is that it allows unionists to be part of the U.K. and nationalists to be Irish. And an invisible, seamless border is part of what makes this possible.

Are you seriously suggesting that Brexit should be decided by terrorists?

By the same token, you think that that a resumption of a Civil War, which is very possible, with the corresponding loss of life and injury to countless people is less important than Brexit?

@Peregrina Of course that's what I think that. I lived through it and there's nothing I'd like more... Do you think Lyra McKee's killers should have the final say over Brexit? Do you think the UK should be dictated to by a few dozen murderous thugs?

What do you think "the removal of security installations " means?
Faridge managed to shut discussion of this problem down with bollocks about "giving in to terrorists"
Yes, it would be nice if everyone was nice but "let's all be nice" is what GFA makes happen. Perhaps a little time spent researching why the border is so significant in Irish history might be time well spent.

I don't believe there is any workable alternative to the backstop. The DUP confidence and supply agreement is up for renegotiation shortly...surely Theresa and co can use this as leverage to see if they'll renege a little? I mean they didnt exactly back her up last time, so how can the agreement even stand? If she can win them around i think a lot more would follow.

Can we just clarify, there is ANPR technology at the seamless border, but not every vehicular intersection of the seamless border is monitored by ANPR ?

So basically HMRC are confident that everyone will just use the bit that is monitored by ANPR technology?

The idea that only terrorists care about the border shows a lack of understanding. Good luck convincing US Congress ( with whom we are making lots of trade deals ) that we can ignore GFA