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Brexit

Westminstenders: A fully functioning government?

960 replies

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2019 23:50

It's been a month since parliament voting on anything.

The staggering reality of May's premiership is that government has ceased to function. We are stuck not just on Brexit but every other issue, such is the weakness of May's authority.

It begs the question of how long this is tolerable by all sides of the Conservative Civil War?

May being unable to bring anything forward means no deal is probably as inevitable as if a hardliner was PM.

There was talk of May / Corbyn reaching a fudge to get a deal via the backdoor WAB (Withdrawal Agreement Implimentation Bill) as it was politically impossible for them to be seen doing a deal any other way. However news today is that despite pressure from the 1922 Committee to bring it forward, May has slapped just a one line whip on it, meaning it will go precisely no where.

The polling for the European elections is perhaps more favourable to Labour than they might have feared after last weeks local election disaster so the mutual interest for Corbyn to move forward in anyway has already gone. Seeing the Tories be humiliated at the ballot box is too much of a temptation.

The phrase about Shit Creek only gets more apt.

All that is happening is every member of the Tory Party is lining up to take part in a leadership contest. It's harder to think of a Tory who isn't considering standing. It's not just the likes of Johnson, Gove, Rudd and Hunt. It's also the likes of Johnny Mercer and Graham Brady queuing not so patiently.

And its getting harder to argue that May is better as PM than the possibility of a right right candidate, because of the paralysis. Though as Rudd rightly points out, such a PM who wanted to actively have no deal as a policy, would struggle to win a majority in the HoC for that all important Queens Speech vote - every bit as much as May. Unless they were to somehow decide they could abuse the power of the executive and ignore parliament - a feat May has repeatedly attempted but ultimately failed at.

All everything feels, is a massive sense of merely delaying the inevitable.

Remain? Hard to see how under any Tory. A Deal? Hard to see what it might be and how there will be a Parliamentary majority. A PV? Well that still has to get through parliament and needs to be arranged smartish. And might not resolve the Irish border issue if the vote goes 'the wrong way' A General Election? That still seems to be a distinct possibility. But with the seeming resurrection of the LDs that's one the Tories will be desperate to avoid. Not that Corbyn is likely to succeed either. And of course there is now the Spectre of the Turquoise Arrows lurking. The crushing of the purple pound notes feels a hollow and distinct success.

It feels like we are waiting for the political sky to fall in in some sort of never ending Brexit Purgotory.

The cataclysmic event will occur at some point. It has to. But for now, it feels that there is nothing but waiting and waiting to be done.

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DGRossetti · 16/05/2019 16:40

This is what happens when nothing is written down, and everything is "by convention" or "traditionally".

Once you get an actor (and somehow I really don't think Theresa May is the author of her actions) that simply ignores convention and tradition, what do you do ? Fuck all.

After all, so many precedents have been set and broken in the past 3 years, "normal" has lost it's meaning.

And I'm not so sure it's by accident.

EggAndButter · 16/05/2019 17:57

*Examining what politicians say and what the full range of their policies are should be a big part in deciding how to vote, rather than just

I would add looking at what they also propose that you dint approve off.
So if you are voting conservative, are you also happy for them to follow the hostile environment policy?
If you vote labour, are you happy with antisemitism?
Or if not happy as such, can you compromise your belief and know that you are supporting that too??

One of the issue that people seem to forget that when you vote, you vote for ALL the party’s proposals, not just the ones you like.

Peregrina · 16/05/2019 18:08

One of the issue that people seem to forget that when you vote, you vote for ALL the party’s proposals, not just the ones you like.

That's the problem though - I bet there is no party that even every paid up member agrees with 100%. It's largely which party has the best fit to your views. Or in some cases, "this is the party we have always voted for."

Maybe though we will now get an upheaval like Peel did when he revoked the Corn Laws.

icannotremember · 16/05/2019 18:31

One of the issue that people seem to forget that when you vote, you vote for ALL the party’s proposals, not just the ones you like.

I disagree with that. You vote for the best fit (or the least worst option), but there is nobody who agrees with every single policy of a party. Not even its members. Not even its leaders!

1tisILeClerc · 16/05/2019 18:44

{You vote for the best fit (or the least worst option), but there is nobody who agrees with every single policy of a party.}
This is of course a significant problem now as the biggest question that needs an answer is whether the UK should actually leave the EU, especially as more of the difficulties are being exposed. The EP elections and even a UK General Election are not answering the specific question so the 'interpretation' leads to dissatisfaction.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2019 18:48

What I mean by examining the "full range" of policies means checking if any of them are totally unacceptable

e.g. I wouldn't vote for someone with Farage's expressed views on race, vote for fascism, even if they were the only Remain candidate
but no candidate or party will have only policies I agree with and none I don't

It's a matter of degree and balance

EggAndButter · 16/05/2019 18:52

Of course you vote for the best fit and you can’t agree with everything.

But if you vote for a party that has decided to be tough on immigration or to walk over human rights etc,.. then you need to accept that you have given your validation to that bit of their program too.
If this is an idea that really repulse you and you can’t accept, then you should t be voting for them iyswim

I think it’s an essential point.
Because otherwise you have people voting for the conservatives whilst telling me (as an immigrant) that they dint have an issue with immigrant and certainly not with me. But they voted for the party who IS making my life much more difficult. And surely they have to accept that they have made the life of thousands of people harder?

Same with let’s say the LD and their stance of women and transgender. You might be happy to vote for them for various reasons (eg they are the one party who is actually Remain) but by voting for them you also support a certain approach to women’s and transgender rights.

There is no escape from it. By saying yes to one part of the program, you say to the other.

Which means you really need to be sure that that part isn’t one that you really have a major issue with. I could see a GC person refusing to vote LD because of that (not sure who they would be voting for instead!) just like you could be refusing to vote Conservative re the increase of poverty/the NHS or labour because of xxx

EggAndButter · 16/05/2019 18:54

Xpost BCG we agree on that. Balance etc...

I do hold people responsible for their vote though.
You can’t vote Conservative and not accept you helped them implement austerity (esp after voting for that 3 times) or the jostle environment etc....

mathanxiety · 16/05/2019 19:18

So first TM said 'pass this bill and I'll leave', and now she is saying 'if it fails I'll leave'.

I don't think she understands the basics of negotiating.

RedToothBrush · 16/05/2019 19:29

Excuse me if I don't blink at May's news today. It changes nothing really. I think the inevitability of her going isn't news. Just more of that perpetual feeling we've had for the last two years tbh.

Plus, I'm distracted by Eurovision, DH is away and just don't talk to me about moving house (its not going smoothly and I'm losing the will to live).

Nothing is really happening and worth posting.

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1tisILeClerc · 16/05/2019 19:44

RTB Flowers

1tisILeClerc · 16/05/2019 19:49

Ah, better news, something to look forward to.......
Camerons book is out on 19 September. Form an orderly queue.

NoWordForFluffy · 16/05/2019 19:52

Bloody hell, RTB, I'm sorry to hear that. Especially after it seemed to all be going to plan in the early days.

I wouldn't vote for someone with Farage's expressed views on race, vote for fascism, even if they were the only Remain candidate

I would imagine Farage's views and being a remainer are mutually exclusive really.

The problem with the EP elections is that you're voting for a party, not an individual. At Westminster and local levels you can weed out your undesirable candidates (even if you support the party) and not vote for them.

But what happens if, in the EP, every remain party has someone on their list, say at 3rd, 4th or 5th, who you're not keen on? Do you end up not voting in case it's your vote which tips the % into that person getting a seat? Trickier!

Bodoni · 16/05/2019 20:02

RemainVoter are running a survey they’d like sharing as widely as poss - www.smartsurvey.co.uk/s/EU_voter_intention_survey/
They may be about to advise about tactical voting? twitter.com/remainvoter?lang=en

1tisILeClerc · 16/05/2019 20:03

Fortunately any MEPs that are batshit will struggle to get their view voted for if they make it to Brussels. It would of course be a wasted opportunity to move the EU forward and risk the UK losing out on things for which Farage could be taken as a model. Had he attended and voted at meetings the UK fishing industry might have been in a better condition. Someone 'on the ball' would have appreciated that UK fishing licences had fishing quotas attached unlike most other countries. Thus, selling the ship abroad also lost the quota.

Peregrina · 16/05/2019 20:30

I wondered if someone would raise the trans issue. As far as I am aware both the LibDems and the Greens have a similar stance. I don't know whether Labour does or not, but possibly yes. As a member of one of these I think they are wrong, and would happily say so. UKIP doesn't, but there is no way on earth that I would ever have voted UKIP (or Farage's new party.)

However if either of the parties mentioned made their trans/gender policies their number 1 priority issue, I would resign my membership.

Peregrina · 16/05/2019 20:32

I would imagine Farage's views and being a remainer are mutually exclusive really.

I gather that 4% of UKIP supporters did vote for Remain, which makes you wonder what they thought the party stood for.

tobee · 16/05/2019 20:37

Or what they thought remain stood for. Or if they thought at all. 🤔

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2019 20:47

"gather that 4% of UKIP supporters did vote for Remain, which makes you wonder what they thought the party stood for."

They may have wanted to Leave, but were among the UKIP minority who looked at the facts
then decided the economic / human cost was too high

NoWordForFluffy · 16/05/2019 20:49

Well, that's all a bit of a juxtaposition, isn't it?!

I can't imagine there was much of a thought process going on for those 4%, however that combination occurred.

Peregrina · 16/05/2019 20:49

Or perhaps they were just racist bigots and realised that this wasn't actually an EU issue.

borntobequiet · 16/05/2019 21:04

Perhaps they liked the logo.
One of the things my Functional Maths learners are surprised by is that the £ sign is a stylised L for libra, similar to lb for pound.

1tisILeClerc · 16/05/2019 21:05

An article in Der Spiegel (in English) has Farage saying it isn't really Brexit he is after but to 'change politics'. I suppose if you keep changing your tune you can't be held to anything, which is handy because as we have seen there is no real substance except the glorification of Farage.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/05/2019 21:35

It does look to be an anti-NHS party.
Another BREX candidate (SouthEast) seems to really hate the NHS:

Led By Donkeyss@ByDonkeys*

Brexit Party candidate @JGBartholomew wants to destroy our National Health Service.

He's written books on how to do it.

A vote for the Brexit Party is a vote against the NHS.

Westminstenders: A fully functioning government?
Halfeatentoast · 16/05/2019 21:35

Oh so needs to join "Change Uk".....