Westminstenders: The gall of the french

[RedToothBrush]

We are full steam ahead with European Parliamentary Elections! Something that seemed unthinkable a few weeks ago.

May still remains adament that they will not happen, but the die has been cast.

May is off to beg Macron and Merkel to back an extension but the French are already stating they want assurances we won't screw thing up for everyone else.

May still is pushing for a deal with Corbyn and a Not a compromise.

Still there is no sign of a breakthrough either for an extension nor over a cross party deal. It drags on, but at least no one has mentioned the WA for ten minutes.

We might yet be in Europe for another Eurovision. Psychologically this feels important.

The ERG are not happy.

@usuallydormant

Thank you for that really insightful look into how we are being perceived in the EU. Food for thought. I hadn't followed Fintan O'Toole previously but will do so now.

Gandhi ?

??

^re the EU refusing talks before A50 invocation:

They had warned before the ref that this would be the case

Their great fear had been that the UK would delay invoking

• play the wrecking card to try to divide the EU, split off countries like Germany, France, Ireland and force concessions.

Instead, the EU held together and hence maintained their power of being the big gorilla

and once the 2-year clock was started, the EU was totally in the driving seat, because the UK needed them far more ....^

BUT
If the UK had decided on Norway++ soon after the referendum and accepted FOM would stay

then imo the EU would have allowed preliminary unofficial scoping,
then after invocation, negotiations would have been harmonious with a defined roadmap
and there would have been Brexit on time, with successful negotiations on the future deal completed amicably during a transition of say 3 years

However, rightwing Brexiters - in government, the HoC, the party in the country, the media - were totally delusional, agressive, chaotic, incompetent, ignorant and unfit for the Brexit purpose

They only had 1 tactic, didn't they? To do nothing for 2 years on the assumption that the EU would give them cake and eat it at the 11th hour.

The DD insistence tht the EU always blink at the 11th hour

Granting any extension will be spun by some as the EU desperate to avoid No Deal & hence blinking

• the 1st extension was played that way by some

with the more delusional claiming this showed the UK should now go tough, tear up the WA and demand cake

Brits are going to have to eat humble pie for a long time as the curtain has been well and truly pulled back.

Certainly from my position here on the Continent there has always been a perception that the English (there's a lot of conflation of England and Britain) are crazy. The British tolerance of eccentrics (as it's viewed over there) is seen here as "the British are nut cases".

Pardon my language, and obviously I'm very much generalising (along the lines of 'Italians talk with their hands and French people stink of garlic').

My view of how the current Brexit debacle is seen over here is that it's a bit like when someone you care about is being ill after drinking too much. You feel really sorry for them feeling so rubbish, but at the same time it's revolting to hear/see someone throwing up and you can't help thinking that they brought it all on themselves. When it's been going on and on for so long like the current back-and-forth you find yourself having less and less sympathy because FFS you've got other stuff to get done and you're sick of this person making it all about them and how they feel, IYSWIM?

That said I still love the UK (wouldn't be on this site otherwise). But yes, the idea that the country could decide to stay in the EU and expect to be calling the shots is a joke.

*Usuallydormant
*
I agree with all you are saying especially that the positive EU message needs to come out for part of the domestic audience and internationally. There was a brilliant video on the 48% groups (that I now can't find) that just played music whilst listing about 101 membership benefits from cleaner beaches to paid holiday etc.

But how do you adapt a message to tailor it for the hubristic nostalgic half (?) of the domestic audience. There are some who are too far down Empire road to just switch. There has to be parts of the message that are adapted for them too.

I think the message must be one of hope that life for most people can improve in the future

imo, it wasn't Blair's superficial charm, or even necessary to swing right to the centre / right of centre as he did, that gave the 1997 & 2001 landslides:

it was the message of hope

Exemplified in 1997 with the simple joy of "It can only get better"

and since the 1st govt delivered, the voters in 2001 had both hope & confidence

Forget the pandering to nationalism - that just keeps the dark side ticking along nicely, waiting for an opportunity

If the UK had decided on Norway++ soon after the referendum

However this ends, it's a total failure for the Leave aspirations. And it's entirely due to them not being able to present a working plan before the referendum. Why was there no plan ? Because (as we saw after the vote) any plan from one faction was immediately decried by other factions as "too soft" "too hard" "doesn't do " "doesn't do "

Also the impatience of the leave supporters (the electoral psychology of instant gratification will be discussed a lot ...) meant that as soon as JRM gave his "50 years time" vision ... a lot of people had a "huh ?" moment.

The reference to Gandhi was ... First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

Littlespaces - this is what I think DGR was alluding to with his Gandhi comment

simple joy of "It can only get better"

Yes that message resonated.

Ahhh. Thank you.

I'm a bit slow atm.

Lack of sleep and worry.

I had the Gandhi quote as a cover photo on FB during the Indyref campaign - that was why I was able to find it easily

simple joy of "It can only get better"

I read that as "butter" for a second. Had visions on 1970s butter mountains.

usuallydormant as an eu citizen in the U.K., I fully agree with you.

The arrogance is so ingrained in the british (English?) psyché that most people dont even realise they are acting superior (and why most people would also be horrified to be thought as arrogant iyswim)

Yes, it is unrealistic and exasperates / amuses other countries

This assumption of both Leavers and Remainers that Britain should "lead",
whether it be in the EU or out,
does not match with the UK's status as a medium size power in a world dominated by a few giants

it is a relic of attitudes that STILL have not adjusted sufficiently to the loss of empire and superpower status after WW2

The nostalgia over WW2 overlooks the permanent & drastic reduction of UK status in the world that it caused.

I honestly believe this is going to be a fractured country until people can give up on chasing this former 'glory' of the Empire. Brexit is definitely a symptom of our confusion and not the cause. We don't know who or what we are and want to be in the 21st century. I'm in my twenties and lots (but definitely not all!) my peers are way more invested in internationalism than nationalism. So there is hope..I hope.

Looks like Treeza is in EU blue today (at least for PMQ).

I don't doubt that there is a "little Englander" mentality that contributed in part to the Leave vote. Althought people have spoken about those who did actually fight in WW2 and did vote to remain.

My father voted in WW2 and he would have voted to leave, because he said we voted to join a common market, not a political project. As such, he would have been happy enough with a customs union option. He was racist but not against Europeans - he had nothing against the Germans despite fighting against them but never forgave the Japanese for example. I'm not sure how today's Japanese are responsible for WW2!

However, I think a lot of people voted to leave not because of British/English exceptionalism, but because, as I've said before, their concerns about population growth without proper infrastructure were shouted down as racism. If the "liberal elite" had listened, we might not find ourselves in this mess. Perhaps also if the gap between the haves and the have nots wasn't so great, we wouldn't be in this mess. We have some of the largest gaps between rich and poor in the EU - that must be significant.

My father FOUGHT in WW2, not voted!

I think you can add Obama's "Yes We Can" to another example of great positive campaigning. And both this and the Blair campaigns were ones that I as an outsider watched from abroad with hope and joy. They were pretty universal messages.

Regarding the nostalgia, it just has to move on, it is tying your country to an irrelevant past. I was also getting that lovely Scottish man on a beach on heavy rotation on my Twitter feeds at more or less the same time as watching the PV video: that is a message that resonates with a modern Europe, not sure how it makes Scots feel but I pretty good I would imagine . (should I know who he is?)

And totally agree with TwistedBiscuit on the drunk friend. In this house we veer widely from "just let them go, they're taking the piss at this point" to "christ, we can't just let them to this to themselves," I would imagine roughly the same feelings are sweeping through the EU27 leaders this afternoon. I do hope we go for the caring friend intervention...

Wow

@DannyShaw
Police Federation of England and Wales has decided to move its prestigious bravery awards ceremony from the #Dorchester Hotel in central London. It follows the introduction of laws to punish gay sex by stoning by the Sultan of #Brunei who owns the hotel:Danny Shaw added,

it is a relic of attitudes that STILL have not adjusted sufficiently to the loss of empire and superpower status after WW2

Agreed. What I feel is that things are shifting. I don't want to tempt fate as even if we get a flextension TM or her successor could still crash us out on a months' notice.But assuming we do edge towards another ref or some type of almost remaining hybrid ...then there has to be some message that tries to win 'the people' round.

There's equal arrogance involved in just assuming everyone will buy into a positive EU message. That lays open a huge vulnerability for being criticised about equal membership of the EU bloc only bringing benefits to the urban elite.

If there's no message that is relevant to the nostalgists then we just end up ignoring the same people who felt disenfranchised before.

In the words of AA Gill we need to have some message that combines EU membership with all this..
" dry stone walls and country lanes and church bells and warm beer and skittles and football rattles and cheery banter and clogs on cobbles. Back to vicars-and-tarts parties and Carry On fart jokes, back to Elgar and fudge and proper weather and herbaceous borders and cars called Morris. Back to victoria sponge and 22 yards to a wicket and 15 hands to a horse and 3ft to a yard and four fingers in a Kit Kat, back to gooseberries not avocados, back to deference and respect, to make do and mend and smiling bravely and biting your lip and suffering in silence and patronising foreigners with pity."

There are a lot out there who see only this.Ignoring them is part of what enabled Farage messages to attract them.

Not expressing myself very well. I don't want to pander to people like my bloomin' FiL or my friend's Union Jack bunting Mum.

But most positive EU messages have to be relevant and not just for the urban elite (like me). Ignoring the Victoria sponge lot got us where we are - iyswim.

SO...if Brexit doesn't happen and we've suffered global humiliation, lost lovely workers and friends abroad, lost business, lost power within EU, broken democracy etc for nothing

Remember time passes quickly and memories can be short. A majority of the younger generation wanted to stay. They aren't anti-Irish, they don't remember the Troubles, they've not been brought up with WW2 films and aren't anti-German. I do think there's hope if we remain. Give it a decade.