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Brexit

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension

971 replies

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2019 13:18

If Macron gets his way we have less than a week. And he seems pretty gung ho - convincing Spain and Belgium, when his veto, alone, would be enough

^Everyone talking about the flextensionschlong extension needs to listen to Macron. If he has his way - it's not happening.
Icantreachthepretzels

What has Macron actually said though and what does he actually believe in?

Just after the first extension was given, Macron said that if nothing changed before the 12th that DID NOT necessarily mean no deal ON the 12th itself. He said it could be on a day of the EU's choosing. It was a hint at a stay of execution at least.

In the last 24 hours or so, the noises have been that France favours no deal but wants two weeks for the markets to prepare. That's consistent with Macron's previous comments.

So I think it's fairly reasonable to take this as your baseline minimum. That would put us exiting on around 26th. I don't think we can refuse this minimum simply because we need every possible day we can get.

Indeed Macron apparently said at the last EU summit that he was in favour of an unconditional offer to stay in until 7th May but Merkel disagree not wanting us to exit the day before the EU's day of unity (9th).

So I think its reasonable that staying in until the 7th is very possible, but if Merkel is unhappy for symbolic reasons I think shift to the following week would be a reasonable compromise to Macron. Or it could make the 26th more likely.

Now the question is just how wedded Macron is to a Hardline approach? We know its Tusk and Merkel pushing Flextension because they lived in Eastern Europe at they have personal reasons over it. We know that Merkel only ever raised her voice to Cameron once over a conversation involving putting up borders with free movement. It's her big thing. And for Macron domestically he's made loud noises about the UK going sooner rather than later. He did a big uturn on his initial comments in agreeing to the 12th / 22nd. So there is something of a collision course here one way or another. Someone has to back down. Who will it be?

My suspicion is that privately whilst Macron knows he has to be tough and favours a sharp exit for domestic reasons he also respects Merkel. How he values his relationship with Merkel might be a big consideration as to how far he is prepared to compromise as well as how many others share France's reservations. I think it notable that whilst France has the power of veto, it seems to be trying to get the support of some of the other 26 too. I think it unlikely France would go for a veto if it were in a minority of one simply because that wouldn't be great for EU unity if others think it a high risk to go for only a short extension. So how easy it is to change the minds of others is perhaps more important than France’s position alone. Whilst throwing his weight around might look attractive and tempting to getting a more French centred leading of the EU post Merkel and whilst he might want to crack on with a much more integrated EU, he's not going to starting from a good place if France is resented for its hardline over Brexit. I'd argue that realistically France needs to work with the other 26 to get any reforms and leadership it wants.

Thus any concessions given won't be because Macron has sympathy for the UK, but because it suits his long term agenda in the EU.

Its worth remembering the conclusions of the last summit, in this context, were also of the opinion that we were more or less incapable of looking after ourselves and almost a failed state that needed baby sitting. They clearly think May is incapable. They may well favour a long extension purely on this basis to let Tories, Tory because no deal and a government collapse at the same time might be something they consider to be exceptionally bad and destabilising. And therefore pose something of a security risk to the EU. (France would, perhaps, be most exposed to this in theory). Indeed Alberto Nardelli of BuzzFeed reported yesterday that many felt a short extension was very risky to the EU. That suggests Macron is somewhat on the back foot.

There is also the observation that transition under the WA isn't a whole lot different to an extension. The real only stumbling block is the EP. The term Flextension really only hides this. And No Deal will merely lead to the WA at some point

No Deal just has a dangerous chaos section in the middle.

The French are certainly not convinced of a long extension though (and Tusk has acknowledged this in his push for a long extension. He is taking the French position seriously and is seeking to persuade rather than dismissing as posturing). On the other hand, its also taken seriously by hardline Tories looking to drive a wedge. Jacob Rees-Mogg's tweet about being obstructive in the EU parliament was very firmly aimed at influencing Macron. Arguably this might well have the opposite affect as it goes, as Macron will be smart enough to see it for what it is.

The other consideration in all this is the make up of the European Parliament itself. There are 14 countries who get extra seats. I can't find the full list, but here's nine of them: Denmark, Croatia, Austria, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Italy, France and Spain. Having more seats is an important thing. And might be influential on what happens.

In Ireland's case it's particularly difficult. Unlike the UK it DOES NOT have a list system.

Peter Foster @pmdfoster
I understand Ireland is a tricky case, because it doesn't have list system.

This means you can't elect four MEPs and then choose top 3 until UK leaves and IE takes fourth seat...becuase if you ran only a 3-seat election you would get different top 3, than if ran 4-seat

Schlong extension with guillotine is something of a practical issue that needs clarification for the Irish; it's not really viable if we aren't committed to staying in for a fixed amount of time, whatever that might be. Exiting at our time of choosing or just having elections and then never taking our seats it's going to stick. I can't see how it will. So that's the exit on 30th June ruled out. Our exit will be something the EU will want to control the date of in some way, even if there is a 'guillotine clause'.

Nick Gutteridge (Sun) thinks a long extension is the most likely option on the balance of probabilities. Peter Foster (Telegraph) is slightly more doubtful and hestitant after hearing the French line. Prior to this he stated: “No deal” risk receded (for now) soon as May indicated Monday night she was open to ‘flextension’ and EU elex. Alberto Nardelli (BuzzFeed) and Katya Adler (BBC) seem to be of a similar mind set to Foster. Gutteridge and Foster have generally been more reliable than British journalists.

The big but to all this is whether May triggers EP elections in the Privy Council before the summit to signal her commitment. If she fails to do it, thinking she can do it after the summit, she won't be taken seriously and I think there is real danger it will revert to the French line.

If nothing else, if I had £100 to bet on whether we are still in the EU next Saturday, I think I'd have to put it on yes we will be. I may be wrong, but despite EU anger and frustration there isn't much to suggest a hard and fast guillotine on the 12th itself.

Will May and the ERG except a long extension? May sounds like she already has. But this is May, and until she takes action, she can't be trusted. Gove is quoted as saying: “It does not matter what the length of the extension that may be offered is. It ends at the point we are out” which seems to be a considered moderate response. Mogg's comments read as a belligerent acceptance of a long extension rather than a total rejection of the idea completely.

So I think if we are offered a long extension, we'll go through all the usual Peter Griffin impersonations and Boris Johnson huffing and puffing that it's a bad thing but it will be sucked up.

Then theres the question of May. She said she'd stay until the next phase. But a date of the 22nd May was also touted. That's probably more what Brexiteers will have their eyes on, than an extension which they will tolerate. It gives them longer to prep for no deal after all. And that ultimately might not be against the interests of the EU either. It just continues the transfer of business to the EU after all.

OP posts:
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Missbel · 08/04/2019 16:44

Those citizenship fees are shocking and shameful. I hate the way we have become so petty and xenophobic as a country.

Calloway · 08/04/2019 16:49

£13800 every 2.5 years for the next 8 years.

Fucking hell. That's outrageous. Only the wealthy foreign need apply.

And then there's that (witless) fruit farmer guy from that earlier clip saying that farm labourers will have to come from somewhere outside the EU? Why would they bloody want to!

horseshit · 08/04/2019 16:53

howabout That makes sense. So the repeal process (??) etc would automatically be stopped? And there wouldn’t need to be another SI relating to exit day as there would be no exit day?

I guess my general question is: would revoking actually mean Brexit is over in both international and domestic law? Or would domestic law still need to be adjusted?

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 16:54

I doubt if the EU - the 27 heads of govt - would agree to modifying A50,
because any likely changes would mean giving the leaving country more time & power to disrupt the EU

A50 was originally written expecting it would need to handle a fascist country, that the EU needed rid off, with all due precautins and asap;
that could still happen, e.g.Hungary

It is essential to negotiate the future relationship AFTER the country has left.

JRM didn't invent the idea of a leaving country being a wrecker to force a better deal
This was already contemplated when drafting A50 - and handled by its short time span and limitations to being purely an exit mechanism.

For the UK, the EU made the concession of an extendable Post-Brexit transition, which shields the leaving country from experiencing Year Zero,
while the fact of having left - and lost all votes - reduces deliberate damage it can cause the EU

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 16:54

£13800 every 2.5 years for the next 8 years

Of course they could double, treble, or increase them by tenfold next year, or the year after ...

Remember, this is the party that tried to tax people - don't think they've lost sight of that. It's just they need to find a way to make it acceptable to their voters.

TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 08/04/2019 16:55

How likely will it be that a vote of confidence May will happen?

Never thought I’d want her to stay as pm😬But the thought of Boris or the toad who write the letter as pm is just terrifying.

I hate that Francois idiot. He just looks dim and dangerous. Like a puffed up toad🤮

vanitythynameisnotwoman · 08/04/2019 16:57

This sounds like a tangent, but bear with me...
I was watching a debate on medicinal cannabis that's not long finished. Essentially Hancock, the SoS DfHSC, says that he's changed the law but these difficult doctors won't prescribe it because there's no decent evidence so he's creating a central way for MPs to send details of people who 'need' it for second opinions. And also that they will do a big randomised controlled trial so that there is evidence for prescribing.

And it made me realise that it's such a parallel to Brexit, because it's the government setting itself up as 'on the side of the people' against in this case the medical fraternity but in the case of Brexit MPs. Also - it proposes action before research... action before planning... and then blames the mess on the very people that would have suggested the research or the planning in the first place.

I guess I should expect very little from the Conservative party and then I wouldn't be disappointed. And I am trying not to share anything disparaging about MPs on social media because I know many of them work extremely hard... but it strikes me that the strategy is both lazy and maybe this is populism again. That we/they give people what they want because it's too hard to say, hold on, this is not the best way.

And in the excess stockpile swap I've got lots of bread flour! I was a bit concerned about my skills... so I had a practice the last couple of days and it turns out I make quite reasonable bread after all Smile

prettybird · 08/04/2019 16:57

Only the wealthy foreign need apply.

That's the whole point AngrySad

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 16:58

"farm labourers will have to come from somewhere outside the EU"

That farmer probably wants workers from developing countries who - he thinks - would not demand Western standards of working conditions, workers's rights, or pay

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 17:00

Cleansing of the foreign poor

The cleansing of the British poor is already ongoing

TalkinPaece · 08/04/2019 17:02

Place marking to say I'm currently going through an employment tribunal.
Its utterly exhausting and I recommend to clients not to start one unless they have union support I do not
10 months done, at least another 6 to go Sad

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 17:11

I was watching a debate on medicinal cannabis that's not long finished. Essentially Hancock, the SoS DfHSC, says that he's changed the law but these difficult doctors won't prescribe it because there's no decent evidence so he's creating a central way for MPs to send details of people who 'need' it for second opinions.

If you want to know anything about cannabis, it's probably best not listen to the government. It would be like trusting the ERG for information on the EU.

A plant used by humans for over 8 millennia (one of mankinds earliest cultivated crops) somehow needs "research" Hmm. The only "research" is how to make money out of it whilst simultaneously locking up people for selling it.

Westminstenders: The Schlong Extension
BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 17:18

TiP 💐 Such a strain for you
One of many areas where a less strong, competent person could not attempt to assert their rights.

HazardGhost · 08/04/2019 17:18

vanity sorry to butt in but the medical cannibis is a funny one, the drs are being a bit dense and were given evidence of the dangers of skunk. It's true there hasn't been enough studies but if someone is risking death from medication resistant epilepsy then the current evidence strongly supports the use as the benefits out weigh the risks. But this is only for a small sub group of medication resistant patients and the caution is understandable for general patient prescription. It's taken years for it to get this far and it's been very frustrating for patients and carers who are living on the knife edge and yet are still being told no.

woman19 · 08/04/2019 17:22

Cleansing of the foreign poor
This includes British children. (born in Britain)

The Home Office has been accused of using UK-born children of immigrants as “cash cows” by charging extortionate sums for them to obtain citizenship

Youngsters who were born in Britain or came here as babies are being prevented from going on school trips and attending college because their parents cannot afford to pay fees of more than £1,000

Meanwhile, adults who have lived in the UK for years are being driven into destitution and illegality in order to renew their status, with some women forced into prostitution to raise the funds to reapply

The cost of applying for British citizenship for a child is £1,102, despite the administrative cost being just £372. A ‘leave to remain’ application for an adult or child, which grants two-and-a-half years of UK status, costs £1,033 per person, with an immigration health surcharge of £500 on top of this

These costs have risen steeply in recent years despite the actual cost of processing applications being significantly lower, meaning the Home Office is generating considerable income. All application fees are non-refundable so are not returned if the application fails

Unlike in most European countries, children who are born in Britain but whose parents were not formally settled in the country at the time of their birth are not considered British

And.........

When considering child citizenship applications, if the child is aged over 10 the Home Office also has to be satisfied that they are of “good character”, which campaigners have described as “outrageous

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/child-immigrants-uk-home-office-citizenship-fees-immigration-amnesty-a8423491.html

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 17:25

Drop in UK services sector activity “seriously worrying”

https://economia.icaew.com/news/april-2019/drop-in-uk-services-sector-activity-seriously-worrying

Political uncertainty has affected demand, with clients unwilling to commit to new projects “until the Brexit deadlock is lifted”,
said Duncan Brock, group director at the Chartered Institute of Procurement & Supply (CIPS).
.......
Chris Williamson, Chief Business Economist at IHS Markit, says the survey shows that
the UK economy is stalling -- and could fall into a “deepening downturn” in the months ahead.

“A drop in service sector activity indicates that UK GDP contracted in March,
with the economy stalling over the first quarter as a whole
and at risk of sliding into a deepening downturn in coming months.

Both the services and construction sectors are now in decline
and manufacturing is only expanding because of emergency stockpiling ahead of Brexit.

“The underlying picture of demand is even worse than the headline numbers suggest.

Service sector order books have contracted at the steepest rate since the height of the global financial crisis in 2009 so far this year,
with companies reporting that Brexit uncertainty has dampened demand
and led to cancelled or deferred spending, exacerbating a headwind from slower global economic growth.

“A stalling of the economy in the first quarter will therefore likely turn into a downturn in the second quarter
unless demand revives suddenly which,
given the recent escalation of Brexit uncertainty, seems highly improbable.
.....
"A fight for survival beckons if this market stagnation becomes entrenched, the global economy remains downbeat and the Brexit cloud is not lifted,”
said Brock.

He added that the current inertia is at risk of becoming “the new normal, unless some major change pulls the sector out of the quicksand”.

Earlier this week,
a report highlighting the economic impact of Brexit uncertainty on the UK found that**
it has cost the country roughlyy*
* £87bn in the 145 weeks since the referendum.m._

havingtochangeusernameagain · 08/04/2019 17:30

I don't understand the cannabis debacle at all. According to a section on Countryfile a few weeks ago, medical cannabis is different from normal cannabis.

So why not change its name and legalise it for medical use?

They're not the same thing. All this angst seems to be for no apparent reason.

Unlike in most European countries, children who are born in Britain but whose parents were not formally settled in the country at the time of their birth are not considered British

I'm not sure the UK is so wide of the mark in that regard. Since 2004 (?) you don't get Irish nationality by simply being born on the island of Ireland for example. I'm pretty sure you can't get German nationality that easily either. Otherwise British mothers would be travelling around Europe to have their babies to get them EU citizenship! The astronomical costs of regularising your status of course are another thing entirely.

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 17:30

vanity sorry to butt in but the medical cannibis is a funny one, the drs are being a bit dense and were given evidence of the dangers of skunk

As soon as the word "skunk" appears in a discussion it's probably time to get home and watch some good TV. It's as meaningless as "taking back control". Alleged "stronger" cannabis (i.e. THC-high CBD-low) strains are a direct result of prohibition, where shysters will maximise their profits by increasing bangs per buck. That's when they are not sprinkling ground glass over it, or adulterating it with goodness knows what.

The Skunksteria also overlooks the fact that historic hashish was way stronger than the 20-25% THC content quoted in the tabloids.

Also, the UK is the worlds biggest exporter of medicinal cannabis, with an interesting rogues gallery of people profiting - chiefly our own drugs minister who has to recuse herself when discussing cannabis policy.

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 17:31

Brexit costs UK £600m a week

https://economia.icaew.com/news/april-2019/brexit-costs-uk-600m-a-week

A report highlighting the economic impact of Brexit uncertainty on the country, estimates that it has cost the UK around £600m per week since the referendum

This would mean that in the 145 weeks since the referendum the total cost to the UK economy is around £87bn.

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 17:34

I don't understand the cannabis debacle at all. According to a section on Countryfile a few weeks ago, medical cannabis is different from normal cannabis.

Bollocks. It's just a consistent strain "whole plant extract". Cannabis breeding for strains is no different than roses.

It's a sore point here, as DW was told she had more chance of getting to the moon than being prescribed SativeX.

Meanwhile, benzodiazepienes continue to be prescribed - with their propensity for addiction and brain damage. Phew, thank god we have a grip on evidence based policy, or things would look mighty strange.

(calms down ....)

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 17:35

So TL;DR is that austerity is paying for Brexit ?

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 17:35

Like many EU countries, Germany does NOT grant automatic citizenship to babies born here.

However, the process of obtaining citizenship for a child - or an adult - is very cheap and just involves proving legal residence and German language / knowledge competence
plus - for the adult - adequate income and no criminal record

Mistigri · 08/04/2019 17:36

Since 2004 (?) you don't get Irish nationality by simply being born on the island of Ireland for example. I'm pretty sure you can't get German nationality that easily either.

There are usually residence criteria, but this sort of thing tends to be much easier and cheaper than in the UK.

For eg foreign children born in France automatically acquire FR citizenship at 18 if they have lived in France for 5 years between 8 and 18. They can request an anticipated procedure to get citizenship at 13. It's free and it's very quick and straightforward (have done it for both my kids).

BigChocFrenzy · 08/04/2019 17:38

My Indian colleague couldn't remember how much his 5-year residence permit cost, as it was so trivial,
but he thinks about 25 Euros

DGRossetti · 08/04/2019 17:40

Like many EU countries, Germany does NOT grant automatic citizenship to babies born here.

It's interesting to compare that with the US' 14th amendment (admittedly drawn up due to the US unique history) .

That's the amendment Trump thinks should be "re interpreted" .....