If we cancel article 50 and stay in Europe then what?

[Cantdoright1]

Surely if the public vote for something and it doesn't happen because parliament don't agree with it so won't let it happen, then we no longer live in a democracy. No point voting ever again as parliament can do what they like with the result. I don't understand why people want is to stay in Europe just because the process of leaving has been so badly handled by those in power. Or do people just accept that when the going gets tough we give up on democracy?

What happens when remainers vote for something they care about but it never happens because the government don't want it to? If we remain were all shafted on any future votes.

I don't know how people can be so fixated on remaining that they are willing to ignore the impacts of remaining on democracy, and the far reaching consequences - much bigger ones than leaving or staying in the EU. There is much more to this now than remain or leave, so much more is at stake.

“Once the decision to leave had been made ALL of Parliment should have been working to make our leaving the EU as smooth as possible”

Parliament didn’t have a great deal of choice - Theresa May has involved them very little until the last minute. However, what do you think MPs of constituencies who voted majority remain should do? Ignore the views of their constituents? MPs who think we should remain but who are in majority leave constituencies have been very mindful of the majority view for their area. Should MPs who cover remain majority constituencies not do the same?

Leave voters accuse remainers of not respecting democracy but I see no evidence of them doing so themselves

Agree OP it's shocking that the middle classes are so determined to hang on to their perceived privilege they will lie, cheat and risk democracy to get their way. There will be a ruse in far right parties and Brexit won't go away because the minority want it too be careful what you try and force the peasants to accept to never ends well.

@Infinite it’s the ‘peasants’ that will suffer the most as a result of Brexit.

I read (think it was in the Guardian) that constituency based voting in the Ref showed 419 constituencies voted to leave, the rest voted to remain.

Actually there is no accurate data on constituency voting - but those MPs in strong leave or remain areas will know about it
fullfact.org/europe/did-majority-conservative-and-labour-constituencies-vote-leave-eu-referendum/

Hersymphony...as I said...ALL should have been working to make the best possible deal.

After Cameron told the country the result of the Referendum would be respected and implemented.

After the 2017 election when ALL major parties said they would respect and implement Brexit.

Then...even MPs whose constituents voted remain should have been working to make the best possible deal. Not working to make sure it was a total fuck up in an effort to overturn the result.

Many of the people who will be annoyed will be hit the hardest with Brexit, so either way you’re going to have some anger

“ALL should have been working to make the best possible deal... even MPs whose constituents voted remain should have been working to make the best possible deal. Not working to make sure it was a total fuck up in an effort to overturn the result.“

And the prime minister involved them... when?

force the peasants to accept to never ends well.

Can a Leave supporter on here please explain why they think trusting an agenda dictated by Liam Fox, Jacob Rees Mogg etc will end well for the peasants?

I’m not sure that parliament has been given the opportunity to work to ensure the “best possible deal”. They were just presented with the prime minister’s WA at the last minute and told it’s her way or no deal.

@Cantdoright1 - as PPs have said: do you complain if a party breaks a manifesto pledge or that we have a GE soon after the prev to break stalemate of hung parliament? Is it undemocratic?

End of the day we shouldn’t complain about MPs because they reflect that the country doesn’t have a consensus about leaving EU. Incidentally are your preferences (in order): no deal, WA, (Norway- if option available)?

Can you see that some people would prefer remain to no deal? Conversely some remainers would prefer no deal to WA. The DUP look like they would prefer no deal and after that remain to WA...

Can you see that many people did not anticipate the Irish border issue and that it is important to them (eg conservatives who say their vote for WAnwould depend on how DUP votes)?

This is why we should have a 2nd referendum with all options (that the EU would agree with - because if there is a majority for what EU does not agree to then we will also be in trouble). Voting by AV. This way, if we don’t get our 1st choice (eg remain, no deal), we can compromise on a less bad option.

We know that VoteLeave was funded by Russia, we know that it broke campaign funding laws.

We know that the now-disbanded Cambridge Analytica farmed people's data/broke the law in order to secure a win for Leave.

How many more reasons do you need to revoke A50? The country was held to ransom by Russia, yet you're bleating about democracy?

Times when the UK Parliament is “undemocratic” according to the OP’s apparent standard:

• In a situation where a vote of no-confidence is called against the government by opposition parties.
• In a situation where government realises, for whatever reason, that a manifesto pledge won’t work or isn’t a priority so doesn’t follow through.
• Any time there is a parliamentary vote where the government’s motion is voted down by the House.
• Any time a motion approved by the Commons is voted down by the Lords.
• Any time an opposition party holds the government to account. They’re just being sore losers.
• Whenever the incumbent party/PM or individual MPs are challenged by other parties campaigning for votes.
• Quite possibly any time there’s a general election campaign, or a general election. After all, we already decided who we want in power.

I mean, why vote at all?

Lonelyplantmum

Of course, there were no millionaires urging people to vote remain were there?
Also some of the directors of the group behind the PV campaign are not exactly skint.

We've all been played.

In what way do leavers think life will get better

‘They voted for pain’

Hersymphony according to your link over 60% of constituencies voted to leave. Had it been a general election the victory would be considered decisive. What do you think THOSE MPs should do? What do you think Nick Boles and Yvette Cooper should be doing? The reality is if MPs acted purely on behalf of their constituencies we'd still be leaving very decisively.

The reason we are in crisis, and why remainers seem able to declare that Brexit is a nightmare, is because the majority of parliament is opposed to the majority of the voting public, and refuse to enact their instruction. That would be absolutely fine - If that same majority of MPs hadn't voted in favour of holding the referendum in the first place, and then the triggering of article 50, having been elected on manifestos which said they'd implement the result.

Parliament DEFERRED this particular decision to the public. The government (and the opposition parties) threw their weight behind remain, and a £9m leaflet was produced to talk up the benefits of remaining, while promising to implement the result. You want to talk lies and fraud, look no further than the bullshit that we'd need an emergency budget and be plunged into recession purely on a Leave result.

In spite of the prophecies a Leave decision was made, and we know no more and no less how it will look than we did 3 years ago - all that's happened is remainers have thrown the kitchen sink at the result trying to disrupt our exit ever since. THAT is why Brexit looks like a shitter.

If David Cameron has triggered article 50 straight away as he said he would then there would have been an emergency budget.

shirleyschmidt why should 40% of MPs stay silent about their constituents’ views? After a general election opposition MPs still challenge the government.

And it’s not just MPs who supported remain who are voting down Theresa may’s deal, is it?

She has not allowed parliament to have any say until now. There has been no “working together” because it was not permitted from the start. Remain voters are not to blame for this.

shirleyschmidt
Agree.

Hersymphony...the PM appears to have been intent on doing everything she could to make absolutely sure that it is a total fuck up. This should have been a concerted effort by whole government to make it work. The whole bloody thing is a shambles.

I have always voted...never really bothered whether the result was what I wanted or not...didn't matter...I had my say.

The overall sense I now have is despair at the realisation of just how incompetent and/or self serving our politicians are.

We are still on course to leave the EU. So whatever leave voters say, remainers have not stopped it happening. The blame for the absolute chaos falls squarely with the government who have handled this incredibly badly. People who have voiced their opinions about remaining or leaving are entitled to do so, you can’t just tell them to shut up because the vote was leave. We are leaving the EU. MPs who don’t want that have not stopped it happening.

I don’t think the PM has the nous to deliberately engineer a fuck-up. She drew up arbitrary red lines and has always taken things to the wire and cocked the whole thing up herself. You can imagine a conspiracy all you like, but I don’t know any remain voters who are happy about what is happening now

All the remain voters I know would have loved a “smooth” exit from the EU. This is hell for everyone except the disaster capitalists and those who love chaos

Random well there wasn't one when we finally did trigger article 50. And there hasn't yet been a recession even though this was predicted purely on a leave vote. So 🤷‍♀️

Hersymphony you make my point for me. Remain constituency MPs (36%, the figure it would be based on your link) don't need to stay silent, and we'd still be leaving. Unfortunately, as you say, Leave constituency MPs are not backing their own voters, hence we have a majority parliament at odds with a majority of voters/constituencies.I don't blame Remain voters, I blame remain MPs of all parties who do stupid things like table amendments for removing No Deal, knowing that will completely undermine our negotiating position. Agree the PM has been awful.

Leavers don't really want democracy, if they did they wouldn't object to a second vote. They know they'd lose this time, as some of the lies have been exposed and a few million people have woken up. Want they want is to have it their way.