If we cancel article 50 and stay in Europe then what?

[Cantdoright1]

Surely if the public vote for something and it doesn't happen because parliament don't agree with it so won't let it happen, then we no longer live in a democracy. No point voting ever again as parliament can do what they like with the result. I don't understand why people want is to stay in Europe just because the process of leaving has been so badly handled by those in power. Or do people just accept that when the going gets tough we give up on democracy?

What happens when remainers vote for something they care about but it never happens because the government don't want it to? If we remain were all shafted on any future votes.

I don't know how people can be so fixated on remaining that they are willing to ignore the impacts of remaining on democracy, and the far reaching consequences - much bigger ones than leaving or staying in the EU. There is much more to this now than remain or leave, so much more is at stake.

Or leaving the continent.

I was thinking about this today.

If a small majority of those who voted (NOT a majority of the electorate though) vote for something very damaging to the economy on all objective measures, takes rights away from citizens, and risks reigniting a small civil war, should a responsible government implement the result? Add in the referendum was advisory with proven illegalities?

Probably a rise of a far right party...the Tories and Labour will be finished that new woke "Independent Group" will suck up split votes, the lib Dems SNP, Plaid and Greens will also take some of Labour's votes.

You'll get a hung parliament next GE with a far right party holding many seats which someone will have to double up with for power. It will get messy. Actually it will be horrific.

Probably a rise of a far right party

Personally I think Brexit will feed the far right rather than satisfied it. If you follow Vote Leave on FB you will see this is just the first step for many.

It’s the last refuge of dictators that changing opinion on an issue is undemocratic. We hold general elections every five years to vote on whether we are happy with the status quo or if we want to change it. I know this doesn’t happen so easily in practise but that is the idea. The basis on which many people voted leave has proven to be fraudulent, should we blithely continue to tear apart the country because a narrow majority of people voted for a pack of lies?

stay in Europe

Kenn I think either revoke it or follow it through at this point we are marching headlong in to far right territory. It's dreadful, the whole referendum should never have been called. David Cameron is a Cunt.

KennDodd - indeed. At what point would it be accepted that a small majority had voted for something so damaging that a responsible government just couldn't implement it? I mean, depending on the day and turnout, I reckon you could get a small majority in this country for interning all Muslims or bringing back the death penalty. Are people seriously arguing that democracy would be broken if we didn't implement a referendum in those terms?

What no leavers ever explain (amongst other stuff like what good things would actually happen on leaving the EU or what terrible things the EU has done to us that we didn't agree to) is why a people's vote would be such a terrible idea. Surely, if leaving the EU is the will of the people, you should have no fear of such a vote as leave would win again and the matter would be settled. If it doesn't win again, well, we've changed our minds. That happens in democracy and is perfectly OK. Is anyone genuinely saying we aren't allowed to change our minds?

I think Norway has had two votes on whether to join - the first one at the time when the UK, Ireland and Denmark joined, and the second some years later, the date of which I would have to look up.

The answer has been No each time,

Agree with you OP.

I suppose it depends on how you view democracy. If you think it's a magic bullet designed to provide you with everything you've been promised, every time you vote then I guess when that doesn't happen you'll think democracy doesn't exist. It seems a bit of a reductive view though. I can think of countless examples of governments either not doing what they said they would or conversely doing things they either said they wouldn't or made no mention of prior to being elected. Politicians lie, big deal, it's what they do. Does that mean that democracy is dead? No, just that it's limited. Surely most people know this though.

I never understand why those ardent defenders of "democracy" are so desperate to prevent a second vote. If it is truly "the will of the people" to leave the EU, knowing what we know now, then that will presumably be reflected in a second vote, and democracy will therefore be upheld. If, however, it turns out that "the will of the people" has now changed, perhaps as a result of new information and/or a better understanding of the likely implications of leaving, then why on earth would it undemocratic for people to have the opportunity to express this.

I suspect that those enthusiastic defenders of democracy are simply rather afraid that a second vote won't go their way, as people now have a better idea of what they are voting for.

I do think democracy matters, but I don't buy into the particular interpretation of democracy that the Brexiteers are so desperately trying to push. Personally, I think it would be highly irresponsible and deeply immoral for our elected politicians to knowingly lead us into a national catastrophe, simply to reflect the choice of an ill-informed electorate at a particular moment in time. Surely we should have higher expectations of our leaders than this?!

You seem to value the concept of democracy very highly, OP. That's great. I suggest that you invest some time educating yourself on how our parliamentary democracy actually works, as you're obviously quite hazy on this at present.

If the UK doesnt leave it will get shat on from a great height all respect will be lost. You also run the risk of the UK being broken up. Can't have one rule for Westmister and another for Holyrude.

if the UK doesnt leave it will get shat on from a great height all respect will be lost

Why would the UK keep any respect by fucking themselves over so spectacularly?

^ genuine question.

I think all respect has been lost anyway.

As for the UK being broken up, it seems infinitely more likely that this will happen as a result of Brexit. Scotland voted to remain in the EU, and if they are dragged out of the EU against their will, that would just strengthen the argument for independence.

Other countries seem to do ok outwith the EU.
We weren't happy in it, Nigal Farage was gaining lots of momentum, for various reasons, not because the public were happy with EU.
We've tried been in and weren't happy let's try being out of it.

Btw I voted remain but just don't see what we have to gain by a massive U turn now.

Other countries seem to do ok outwith the EU

Please tell me their trading agreements and how we can achieve the same or better without being part of a large trading block. Not just “they seem to be doing fine” without any detail of why that might be.

Other countries seem to do ok outwith the EU

The thing is, they have never been in the EU to start with.

We have; its intrinsically woven into so much of how we are governed, regulated and legislated. To try and extricate ourselves away from that is proving too complicated and damaging for us. To compare ourselves to countries that have never been members is a false comparison. Why can people never seem to realise this?!

Imagine you have a bomb to diffuse.

There is one red wire and 99 blue wires. The red wire starts a countdown that cannot be stopped and when it gets to 0 the bomb will explode. The red wire is the only one connected to the timer

Once all the 99 blue wires have been cut the bomb is no longer dangerous.

Anyone with any sense would leave the red wire until last. But we have a PM who cut the red wire and then didn't even attempt to cut the blue wires, did not allow anyone else to cut them and wouldn't even discuss the cutting.

Once the timer was at 5 she then told people which blue wires they must not touch.

The countdown is now 1 - we can allow the bomb to go off or reconnect the red wire. Revoking article 50 does not stop Brexit it just stops a countdown.

There are so many positives to leaving Europe too. If only the press would highlight some of them we wouldn't all be so trained to think negatively about leaving.

OP, please come back and tell us about the positives. I’m really worried about the impact of leaving the EU and I’m highly likely to lose my job because of it. So please, I’d love some reassurance about the up side of this total shitshow.

I want to remain. Very much.

But I also voted labour at the last general election and I HATE the current Tory government.

Labour voters were mocked so much for being 'sore losers' when we were upset Tory's had won.

I do find it incredibly hard now that those who once mocked me are now being sore losers themselves. Especially when brexit was instigated and poorly managed by the Tory government THEY themselves voted in.

Why just go back to brexit - why not do another general election? Push through labour, they weren't even promising brexit referendums in their manifesto's?

Cantdoright1. Agree.

The mistake was believing that politicians would respect the vote and work to implement it. Once the decision to leave had been made ALL of Parliment should have been working to make our leaving the EU as smooth as possible. This did not happen, indeed it seems quite the opposite. The majority in Westminster have gone out of their way to make sure that we were weak in our negotiations and have done everything in their power to undermine the UK.

I will not vote for ANY of these people again. Like many I know, we just don't see the point. Maybe another choice will arise?

“I've voted for a party that didn't win an election before and never had a hissy fit about it and demanded we all vote again”

I have never ever voted for the winning party - never even voted for the MP who has won in my seat. Never had a “hissy fit” about it either, and nor has it stopped me voting in subsequent general elections, which is exactly when we “all vote again”.

Why are leave voters so keen to suppress the opinions of others who think differently to them? Sounds the opposite of democratic to me.