Westminstenders: Distract and divert. Just close your eyes.

[RedToothBrush]

This morning Jeremy Hunt declared that, 'With vision on both sides we can find a way through that has the support of Parliament and also works for the EU'

Of course this is 18th February 2019 and the UK has yet to demostrate they understand the problem, much less have the vision to solve it. And we leave the EU next month.

It needs to be stressed at this point: DON'T FORGET TO FOCUS ON WHAT REALLY MATTERS

Everything else is a tactic to make you close your eyes and miss what is really going on. Everything. Brexit looks increasingly like a hypnotist making their subject do ever increasing acts of ridiculousness on stage. Except I do not know if the public or the politicians are that poor sod. It is the magician who uses tricks of slight of hand to make you look the wrong way, whilst they makes all the big moves out of your vision.

There are so many stories that are coming out to try and make you miss what the government are failing to do. Stay focused. We can't ignore all these stories, but understand whether they are really important to the end game too.

A labour split, a march on the 23rd March, talk of a PV, the Brady amendment, the Malthouse Compromise, Cooper-Boles halting no deal?

No we need more than that.

The time for fantasies are gone. Its time to face reality and be pragmatic. The only thing that matters is the approaching cliff. Which we will go over not on the 29th March but in the next couple of weeks. We might not realise the ground disappearing beneath our feet at first. Our momentum as we go forward will carry for a short while before gravity kicks in.

But we can not defy the laws of physics and suddenly be able to fly because we develop magic superhuman powers of vision.

And no one will come to save us either.

Our national humilation will be total, if we don't acknowledge what is coming and stop.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3492426-Westministenders-Abbreviation
Brexit Abbreviation Thread

Your klaxon for the morning

Defections apparently planned for 11am.

news.sky.com/story/man-arrested-over-no-blacks-racist-graffiti-on-salford-door-11642571
Man arrested over 'no blacks' racist graffiti on Salford door

We are going back in time.

I'd like more information about SB case. It's hard to get facts with all this emotion floating around.
What actual crimes under British law may she have committed?
Are UK men who went to fight finding it easier to return here unnoticed?
When the 'fighters' return, are they being prosecuted for their violent crimes over there?
How could the courts prove what they did over there?
Is the particular difficulty stopping her from returning just that she doesn't have a passport (I believe she used her sister's to go there) and that her baby doesn't have a passport?
How easy is it to de-radicalise and rehabilitate them?

I feel I don't know enough to form an opinion.

George Peretz QC @ georgeperetzqc
Another powerful point by @bricksilk: if we duck responsibility for those who grew up here but accidentally have another citizenship, we will find the same tactic used against us - people who grew up elsewhere but happen to be entitled to U.K. citizenship.

If you throw awkward rocks into your neighbour’s field, you can’t complain when they do it back to you.

I've avoided the Begun thread because I know it'll just make me angry, however it seems there is no escape.

Compassion is neither here nor there (though I certainly feel compassion for the poor baby in the middle.of all this). There are processes and rules and laws. These should be followed. Abdicating out responsibility onto another country by removing citizenship or effectively martyring her by media will not help us at all to reduce terrorism. It will have exactly the opposite effect.

Anyone's personal feelings as to whether she is a bad person or deserving of compassion shouldn't come into it.

All that Javid's actions are doing is giving her publicity she should not be getting, publicity that can only aid IS.

Morning all. Think I've missed most of this thread. BBC news tells me TM is off to Brussels later to negotiate the backstop

WIth regard to something a poster said further down thread about the government will debate a petition once it reaches 100k signatures: the government will consider for debate. Weasel words which mean nothing.

Morning all. Think I've missed most of this thread. BBC news tells me TM is off to Brussels later to negotiate the backstop

I bing watched Russian Doll last night and today it's like May has got herself caught in some sort of Backstop related timeloop.

*binge watched

Bigly re Begum. Yes. Absolutely right.

The Secret Barrister
This thoughtful document illustrates how to deal with a British woman who travels to join ISIS and has a baby:

- Managed return to UK
- Criminal investigation
- Deradicalisation
- Care for baby

It’s the Home Office 2018 counter-terrorism strategy, foreword by Sajid Javid.

H/T to @JessBlackbourn for this. Link to the full report is here:

t.co/q3zM3AkybO?amp=1

Amazing.

So counter terrorism policy goes out the window if its high profile like this.

Wasn't going to comment on this but anyway - I doubt the journalist met her (Shamina) "by chance" - I thought he/she had heard a rumour that there was a"jihadi bride" in a refugee camp. AFAIK she fled a fallen ISIS stronghold, hence in the camp. She's a British citizen - my view is that if she can make her way to the appropriate authorities, she should be repatriated and tried for crimes she may have committed. Her child should be removed from her and given a stable loving home.
I watched the interview. She seems to be a very odd young woman. But she would have to be, to be attracted by ISIS in the first place.
Javid is obviously showboating, and I agree it's a ploy to demonise the ECHR.

I'd like more information about SB case. It's hard to get facts with all this emotion floating around.
What actual crimes under British law may she have committed?

I posted a link to a legal blog with answers to this yesterday but it's probably about 200 posts further down the thread now.

The answer seemed to be that membership of a proscribed terrorist organisation is a crime, but that getting a conviction might be complicated given that she was a minor and was groomed. Getting evidence for crimes committed in Syria would also be complicated (especially as she may not actually have committed any: she appears to have spent the last four years getting impregnated and incubating babies).

I think the media attention is very unfortunate and in some ways exploitative. She comes over as not very bright - I don't really feel "compassion" for her but two dead babies in three years may well have had an impact on her emotional and cognitive functioning.

At the moment it's Trial by Outrage.

Regular lurker, thanks to all A’s always for the knowledge.
I feel that SB is being used to dog whistle, further ‘the Saj’s’ career and as a dead squirrel.

Stripping someone of their citizenship in this way by an incompetent and petty Home office is dangerous. I cannot help but think of how they caused and dealt with the Windrush scandal, in parallel with ‘first they came for...’

I’ve not fully researched this but following my basic immigration knowledge, if someone only has ‘non-British’ windrush parents, retrospectively what right do they have to British citizenship? Seeing as the HO can strip citizenship without due process, can those children be stripped of theirs too?

About the petition response - Thanks Lucie, it was me.

The crap response continues, separately, “This petition has over 100,000 signatures. The Petitions Committee will consider it for a debate. They can also gather further evidence and press the government for action.”

The original petition page says "Parliament will consider this for a debate - Parliament considers all petitions that get more than 100,000 signatures for a debate.
Waiting for 4 days for a debate date"

But it would need an MP to request a debate? I'm just hoping Revoke can be aired in Parliament - maybe by the new Ind Group.

@Mistigri - agree with you about the trauma of loosing two babies. Also she has been living in a war zone - she will have seen all sorts of atrocities- women and children raped , maybe the results of use of chemical weapons....... living in that kind of environment changes you., changes your emotional response, changes your outlook on life.
I don't feel one ounce of compassion for her, but I do hate the way she is being used as political canon fodder to whip up emotions about a group (Muslims) that are seen as different.
I also hate this creates two levels of citizenship- those who are born here , and those like my family who have immigrated here.......

This thoughtful document illustrates how to deal with a British woman who travels to join ISIS and has a baby

The woman was deported from Turkey - I imagine we don't have an extradition arrangement with Syria.

Also:
Deprivation and nullity of British citizenship:nationality policy guidance

www.gov.uk/government/publications/deprivation-and-nullity-of-british-citizenship-nationality-policy-guidance

Going back to the Tory MPs possibly leaving the party today, if there are then further departures, and May actually loses her majority, what happens then?

Sorry Bodoni - rubbish memory! Yes, it would be fantastic if the Tiggers can bring this one to the fore.

As a poster child for the compassion of the left, she is a terrible choice, who will push a great many wavering voters into the arms of the Tories unless the left get their heads out of their compassionate arses and see how most of the population view her:
as being on the same sort of level as Myra Hindley

Have you been reading the Mail?
Pandering to an increasingly rightwing population will not end well.

This story was originally broke by a Murdock paper, Trumps buddy.

As far as i'm aware she has committed no murders or taken part in beheadings.. she said the heads in bins didn't faze her but saw no murders.
She is/was a UK citizen and therefore entitled to a fair trial and then, if guilty, a v long sentence, it is NOT about sympathy, its about upholding our values and laws in the face of the mob, her child will either die or risks becoming another iS supporter if left out there.

If we don't uphold the law when it is not expedient to do so, we are on a very dangerous slope.

Perhaps you should look at the case of Mary Bell rather than Hindley.

Yes she did come across as odd in those interviews, and didn't do herself any favours. Having not been in Britain for 4 years, she's missed the Referendum, Windrush etc, and might not realise how very out of step she is with mainstream opinion here now.
The second interview she looked to me like she was totally exhausted. She had just given birth, after all.

Going back to the Tory MPs possibly leaving the party today, if there are then further departures, and May actually loses her majority, what happens then?

It depends of they would vote against her in a vote of no confidence or not.

jas totally agree. Also compassion is not the same as condoning or even understanding.

This is not just stripping citizenship. This is the road to repatriation.