Who thinks there should be another referendum

[paprickapaull]

Who thinks there should be another referendum?
My mum says there shouldn't but my husband says there should be I'm not very sure.

What do u think?

Mesnt to write I don’t ubderstand your point about Stuart

UK nationals who have chosen to make their home elsewhere, have no intention of returning to live here but still believe they have the right to an opinion on UK membership of the EU.

About a million U.K. nationals live in the EU and most depend upon EU membership for their right to do so.

Yes @Mistigri , but the opinionated poster we are talking about lives neither in the UK it the E.U. and hasn't done for 30 years. Of course Brits in the E.U. are entitled to a view .

Mistigri: yes, I know: so why the hell would any of them vote to leave? Turkeys voting for Christmas. Or they just didn’t think it through. Either way, leave voters who choose not to live here played a part in screwing up the futures of those of us who do and it’s their right to do so that Ibtake real issue with. I don’t know what the figure was, hard to find a definitive, but 25% - 28% seems to be commonly quoted estimates.
Obviously, if someone is on secondment for a couple of years and will be returning, that’s a different story. But I personally know retirees with no intention of returning who voted to leave. The kind who sit in Spanish bars, eating fish and chips and refusing to learn Spanish 😡 they’re allowed to take part in UK elections up to 15 years after leaving. That’s just wrong.

Yes, bellini - I feel that about a nephew who holds a British passport but has lived abroad for most of his life and chose to stay overseas when he reached adulthood. He happened to be back for a one year work contract, voted Leave, and promptly cleared off again. His brother meanwhile did return here and made his home here. We are both pretty disgusted with the Leave nephew/brother.

Yes @Mistigri , but the opinionated poster we are talking about lives neither in the UK it the E.U. and hasn't done for 30 years. Of course Brits in the E.U. are entitled to a view .

It's worse than that: the poster concerned has claimed today on MN both to have the right to vote in the U.K. and to have lived elsewhere for 30 years. So they're a liar or a crook. We should be calling out this type of deception, not attempting to debate it.

Please don't conflate people who have lived in Hong Kong or Western Australia for 30-odd years with the British in Europe, many of whom didn't have a vote but are the most directly affected group of Britons.

Mistigri “many of whom didn’t have a vote”

Who are these? As I understand it (could be wrong of course, don’t think I am) all British citizens over the age of 18, notwithstanding the usual voting restrictions, who have lived in the EU for less than 15 years had the right to vote.

Do you really think that people who have chosen not to live here for upwards of 15 years should have a say in a Vote that will make monumental changes to the lives of other people who actually live here? I don’t.

Do get tired of people who have made their lives elsewhere, through choice, or who have a nice safe dual nationality escape route, pontificating on the benefits of leaving from their insulated ivory towers.
Totally agree.

JRMisOdious
I am British and voted Remain and at the time had no idea I would emigrate to the EU. I would now vote leave, by the least 'painful' route, the WA because having witnessed the atrocious behaviour of the UK government it is pretty obvious that the background simmering of euroskepticism is boiling over and to protect Europe the UK should not remain. The UK crashing can be 'recovered' by IMF loans or whatever, painful but doable. Breaking the EU apart, particularly with all the other world tensions going on with Putin and Trump particularly would be very dangerous to the EU and the UK which would just get caught in the crossfire. As nervewracking as it might be in the UK it could escalate into a lot worse.

MissedTheBoat Problem with WA is that it is perceived as remain in disguise as the Irish border issue may drag on forever.
Well, they should have thought of that before the referendum, shouldn't they?
No wonder we're a laughing stock.

1tisILeClerc

And (poor grammar, I know) from your new perspective I can totally understand your point of view. The sad thing is, I don’t believe that Euro-sceptics are in the majority. Zealots always shout loudest and it just seems that way. The media certainly doesn’t help, with its portrayal.
Having read through the thread, I think you’re probably more well informed than I am on the technical stuff but I still believe the contrary, that this whole sorry debacle has strengthened the EU.
We’ve postponed booking European trips this summer. Aside from the confusion, it’s going to be frankly embarrassing admitting to being English. May fall back on my paternal antecedents and just describe us as Scottish. It’s all so very sad.

Do you really think that people who have chosen not to live here for upwards of 15 years should have a say in a Vote that will make monumental changes to the lives of other people who actually live here? I don’t.

That's a pretty poor argument for saying that British citizens shouldn't have the right to vote on an issue which could remove their right to live, work, access medical care or drive in the country they have made their home for the last 15 years. Especially since some of those people are also paying tax in the UK.

Do you really think that people who have chosen not to live here for upwards of 15 years should have a say in a Vote that will make monumental changes to the lives of other people who actually live here? I don’t.
I do. And i also think EU citizens who are resident here should have been allowed to vote.

@jrmisodious
I do know of a couple of people who have had to make a choice and could not keep their German citizenship but who knows, I might be wrong on that one.
My point was that I don't think there should be different tiers in rights conferred by nationality. France for instance has representation in place for expats and the right to vote is for life regardless of where they live. There is no disenfranchisement; the expats are courted by presidential candidates for instance. They are viewed as a asset abroad rather than unwelcome interference in domestic affairs.
France is by no means perfect but I quite like the approach to citizenship. It is much more 'sacred' than here. There is also no stripping anyone of it, even dual nationals- but that's a different debate.

I agree, I also think that EU citizens who live and pay taxes here should have been allowed to vote too - because they live here!

Where do you draw the line though, in respect of the number of years someone has to be non-resident here before they forego their right to take part in a vote that will have disastrous consequences for those who still live in a country they’ve waved goodbye to? No, sorry, I don’t believe it’s reasonable that someone who has not been resident in a country for many years, often for advantageous tax reasons, who may have no intention of returning, should be able to reserve the right to vote just in case they change their mind and decide to return at some point in the dim and distant future. If they do, they’ll have to adapt to the circumstances they find.

It may not be a well thought out argument, there are bound to be numerous individual worthy circumstances I haven’t even considered. But I’m just so bloody angry at the stupid old gits, sitting in Spain, France, wherever, living cheaply, waving their union jacks and singing Rule Brittania at the fex-pats club, banging on about the good old days and how Great Britain was before the EU and it’s bendy bananas ruined everything. These people had the right to vote leave and help to f**k up the future for my children.
So, maybe my arguments are skewed. I’m so angry and despair for our country.

JRMisOdious
The problem is mostly a political one.
With technology and finance the UK are in the top teams with the best in Europe and the USA as a cooperative activity and the freedom to move and trade with common standards has enabled that. This aspect will cripple the UK as it's not just tariffs of manufacturing but a million and one 'little' but important bits that make it all happen. JiT deliveries for food and car parts hits the headlines but there is so much else. Even the Eurostar, yes I know it is not going away but the fast turnaround enables key staff to 'commute' from the South of the UK to many areas in Northern Europe.
What escapes many in the UK is that the EU is not 'us against them' but in many ways a 'supercountry'. To those in Europe, nipping across country borders is as noticeable as different style road signs, similar to going into Wales or Scotland.
So far the 'end game' is leaving. The frightening part is that it is only the start, which many do not seem to understand. With a 'crash out' no deal, legally the UK is standing on the street in it's pants asking 'what now', for which the immediate answer is around a year of mad panic trying to throw deals together. The EU has been generous and will not stop flights, ferries and trucks, and a list of other things, for a period of 9 months or a year. Legally they don't have to do this and it is only because they are not quite fully prepared plus the fact that they are not 'the enemy' despite what too many politicians and the gutter press would like you to believe.

Know a little about finance, my husband was senior in the City for decades. He said the day if the result that this is going to be an absolute shit shower - a phrase that’s become incredibly widespread since but I do t think he can take credit for inventing it
God how right he was.

{France, wherever, living cheaply,}
France isn't cheap! The way taxes and benefits is worked out is different to the UK so selective views as a visitor on holiday would get a different impression I stand to be corrected but every Euro you earn is taxed at around 23% and there is no tax allowance (first £13K in the UK?). I think by the time you are on mid range salary it is roughly equivalent to the UK.

I get very tired of British born people who have made their lives in an EU27 country expecting to have a right to help determine what happens in the UK.
You moved out of the UK and should have no voice here whether you live and work in France or have retired to Spain.
I don't care whether it affects you, you obviously didn't care enough about the UK to continue living here. You prefer to live somewhere else. You should have thought about it before you left.
And people in Gibraltar should not have had a vote. That was ridiculous.

1tisILeClerc

Isn’t property still very cheap, compared to the UK, even taking into account the sliding pound, (not in Paris obviously and some of the regional cities, but in the places British people tend to retire to? A friend was showing me a website of provincial French properties very recently, where she could acquire a gorgeous for bed detached on a good plot in a pretty country area for less than the price of her very small, two bed bungalow in a nasty, windswept Northwest coastal town.

I don't care whether it affects you, you obviously didn't care enough about the UK to continue living here. You prefer to live somewhere else. You should have thought about it before you left.

That'll teach me for daring to fall in love with and marry a French man instead of finding a proper British husband instead.

Coppersulphate
{I get very tired of British born people who have made their lives in an EU27 country expecting to have a right to help determine what happens in the UK. }
Since I have paid tax in the UK to support you for 40 years you have a disgusting attitude to this.

While house purchases may be better value than the UK I am not sure the overall package by the time you have made improvements and taxes etc work out a lot less.

I find this cold attitude towards people who live abroad and this complete lack of fucks given for the fact that they have jobs and homes and family lives and are being held to ransom by some idiot politicians really quite callous.

TonightJosephine
Coppersulphate is a sore winner.
She is obviously not bothered that the EU in the UK and the UK in the EU are on a rollercoaster of tension not knowing what our rights will be and even if we will be allowed to stay where we have made our lives.
My business relies on me being able to travel across Europe easily.

1tisILeClerc

Waves white flag .
I haven’t worked for a long time but paid my share when I did, higher rate for part of the time. My husband has paid obscene, humungous amounts of tax and insurance over the decades, more than enough to cover our family and more several times over. I didn't apply for child benefit allowance, I kept up my NI contributions privately, ours kids were privately educated and the first was even born privately back in the heady, pre-child day’s when we actually had disposable income
If various practical considerations didn’t prevent it, we would relocate to Portugal tomorrow. Have to say, if we did it wouldn’t occur to me to vote here anymore. Would expect to be allowed to vote there though, which as I understand it we could.