Who thinks there should be another referendum

[paprickapaull]

Who thinks there should be another referendum?
My mum says there shouldn't but my husband says there should be I'm not very sure.

What do u think?

Did you not vote last time, Romany?

How come?

Problem with WA is that it is perceived as remain in disguise as the Irish border issue may drag on forever.

By whom is it perceived as Remain in disguise?

I think there should be one where the options are

1. Push ahead with Brexit
2. Cancel it and never have to talk about Brexit again

I suspect option 2 would win but I am a shameless remainer

In reality?
No, we were not informed for the first one and people are no better informed now. I think May should have the guts to say that she can't deliver what the referendum promised and ploughing ahead is not in the national interest so we are going to cancel.

By whom is it perceived as Remain in disguise?

By a majority of MP's who voted it down be a record 230 votes

Plus, if we did have another one, I think all the British citizens living in the EU who were excluded last time should be allowed to vote. They are as directly affected as anyone living in the UK.

Nope, that's not why they all voted against it. Maybe you need to read a bit more widely.

Nope, that's not why they all voted against it

So why did MP's vote it down? Listening to MP's on programmes like question time the consensus seems to be that the May deal is worse that what UK has at present. Even the pro remain Labour MP's say it was a bad deal?

They voted it down because they all have different versions of the deal they want. Some thought it too Remain-y. Some thought it too Leave-y. Some did what other MPs did. Some were too scared to stand up to their constituents. Some didn't like how TM was going about things. All sorts of reasons. The only way she can get WA through is by playing chicken with them.

not in the national interest so we are going to cancel

Catastrophic. Like handing in your notice then going to Employer 2 years later and saying:

"I can't anything better than what you provide. Will you re-employ me?"

Employer replies

"Of course, but the terms will be revised in favour of myself"

I also think we have to go through with it. But only via WA.

Problem with WA is that it is perceived as remain in disguise as the Irish border issue may drag on forever.

Right, here we go. The heart of the problem.

So.

Three years ago the referendum was narrowly won by 52% of those who voted on one particular day. This translates to about 37% of the electorate, compared to 35% who voted remain and 28% who apparently didn't give a shit either way. (The people of Northern Ireland voted to remain overall, but aren't numerous enough to have swung the result even if all had voted to remain.)

Based on those figures, the logical response would be to go for a softer form of Brexit, in the spirit of compromise.

Theresa May has negotiated a withdrawal agreement which would have the effect of ending free movement of people (a tragedy for many of us but something most leavers were adamant they wanted), whilst keeping us in close regulatory alignment with the EU so as to maintain the open border in Ireland (thus respecting the pre-existing referendum on the Good Friday Agreement, in 1998, and the international obligations the UK has signed up to).

I cannot pretend that the withdrawal agreement is a good deal for the UK, but then I am coming at this from the point of view that no form of Brexit is a good deal for the UK. However, it is a workable compromise.

But that's not good enough for some leavers, is it? Oh no. It's being labelled "remain in disguise", despite the fact that it ends free movement of people between the UK and the EU and therefore is quite obviously not a form of "remain".

Who are the people peddling this obvious bullshit? Oh, right, they're the people who want no deal. They're the ones who want to burn the country to the ground so they can buy it off cheaply, and they don't care who is harmed in the process.

They don't give a shit about people living in Northern Ireland, or Gibraltar, or the looming threat of the Scottish independent movement. They certainly don't care that 63% of the electorate and nearly three quarters of the population did not vote leave in any form, and that some of those who did would be happy with a softer compromise.

They must get their own way. Nothing else will do.

So the withdrawal agreement is dead.

So whether we crash out with no deal and you realise belatedly that it is just as much of a disaster as we warned it would be, or whether we cancel the whole thing and remain, you'll know whose fault it was.

It is the fault of the extreme Brexiters who will not compromise.

The only way she can get WA through is by playing chicken with them

That's why I would vote for a No Deal leave. UK is out of EU for sure taking that approach and £39 billion better off. I too think that WA is a remain in disguise.

Even if WA goes through will the voters accept it?

Even if WA goes through will the voters accept it?

By this I assume you mean will the leave voters accept it, since they are apparently the only ones whose views matter and their views only matter because they are perceived as useful idiots by the disaster capitalists who would drive us all to ruin-.

"That's why I would vote for a No Deal leave. "

But you haven't lived here for 30 years so your view on what is best for our country is worthless.

I am UK Citizen and free to call UK my country.

Interesting to see what happens over the next few days.

I am off now as I am several hours ahead of UK. Need to be up early as being paid Tax Free is very taxing at times. Had to get that one in.

3 hours ahead, by any chance?

A lot more than 3 hours ahead. Midnight for me now

The WA is the WITHDRAWAL Agreement.

On the basis the UK is leaving, the best way is through signing the WA and then getting straight into the negotiations and PD. Companies that have planned to leave will leave anyway. Delaying constructive negotiations beyond the absolute minimum time necessary (estimated as a bit over 2 years) will simply hurt industry more.
Even 'crash out' will take about a year to achieve and the effects will be horrendous because only a few basics have been proposed as emergency measures. The EU will permit flights and truck movements on THEIR terms for a year.
The £39 Billion is money that the UK owes now, or more accurately it owes about £19 Billion at the end of March, the other £20 Billion would be for the transition period of 2 years if/when the WA is signed.
If the UK thinks it is ducking out of the £19 Billion it owes it will trash international reputation and be a serious impediment to any trade deals (as someone who doesn't pay the bills).

who have a nice safe dual nationality escape route
@JRMisOdious
It's not that simple. I hear what you're saying but it's tiring being a dual citizen and somehow considered 'less than' by both sides. It's not so simple giving up one's citizenship of origin (Gisela Stuart had no choice as Germany did not accept dual citizenship at the time, naught to do with integrity).
What you just said here is not much better than 'just go home'... identity is never that simple.

So MissedtheBoat has lived outside the U.K. for 30 years and claims to have a vote?

If this person voted in the referendum - or votes in a new one - they will have committed a criminal offence.

I do detect the aroma of rodent about said poster.

MissedtheBoat has fiddled it to be resident here part of the time, so then would be able to vote, and also fiddled it not to pay tax here. So good to see such patriotic people around.

It's not rat that I smell.

Songsofexperience

I understand your point about Stuart (shudders, really don’t like the woman). My mother in law is German, has been here since the early 1950s and has dual Britush/German citizenship, has for donkey’s years. Can’t imagine why Stuart wouldn’t have the same rights? Everything Ive read says she chose to revoke her German nationality in favour of British.
I don’t consider my mother in law “less than” at all. However, don’t think she would have any moral right to vote in a German referendum (even if that was allowed, I’ve no idea about that) because she has chosen to make her hone here. Why should her opinion count for anything in a decision that would not affect her personally? That’s what I strongly object to, UK nationals who have chosen to make their home elsewhere, have no intention of returning to live here but still believe they have the right to an opinion on UK membership of the EU.