Is Jeremy Corbyn right to insist on ruling out no deal before engaging?

[lazylittlelucy]

I am not a fan of JC and think he has repeatedly fucked up on Brexit but I also think it is IMPERATIVE that we avoid no deal.
Is he right to dig his heels in on this issue or is it just another example of his intransigence?
I'm inclined to think he is right, but are there good reasons why it should not be ruled out?

No deal is what happens if we can't get a deal. That's not what Teresa May says. It's within the A50 rules. We won't get an equivalent deal to what we have if we leave the EU because we have a bloody good deal within the EU. Better than other countries within the EU but we decided to throw it in the bin. The Labour Party know it is impossible for us to get an equivalent deal outside the EU so what do they want??

No deal is what happens if we can't get a deal. That's not what Teresa May says. It's within the A50 rules. We won't get an equivalent deal to what we have if we leave the EU because we have a bloody good deal within the EU. Better than other countries within the EU but we decided to throw it in the bin. The Labour Party know it is impossible for us to get an equivalent deal outside the EU so what do they want??

Whether you like Hammond or not, his exasperated sighing just now whilst Corbyn was talking, speaks for many of us.

If the EU give some sort of time limit for the Irish backstop, the DUP and more Tories will vote for it rather than plunging us into no deal. As a result, Labour will look like idiots. They will have condemned us to a Tory government for a generation. They want to protect jobs? Well the withdrawal Act brings all existing laws into UK law. However, Parliament can't bind itself. The only way to ensure they are not repealed at a later stage is for Labour to get into government and make their own laws. But Corbyn and his cronies have made such a hash of this that they are completely unelectable.

I do think the Labour Party needs to split now or get rid of Corbyn as leader.

We all need to focus on who got us into this mess and who can get us out.

May can revoke A50 at any time, if she does not, then she alone has chosen to drive the UK off an economic cliff.
Purely to save her party and not the millions who will be very harshly affected.

Blaming Corbyn is a sideshow,

I blame the 17.4 million. I don't care about who to blame, though.
The MPs can get us out of this mess. They could sort this mess out if they were brave enough.

UK agreed to the Backstop in December 2017. Now Parliament demands to renege. Current govt = Worst negotiators ever (?)

I do think the Labour Party needs to split now or get rid of Corbyn as leader.

Yup. But the party shaking off Corbyn won’t stop another far left leader now that Momentum runs it. A split is the only plausible way out of the Corbyn/far left nightmare now.

May can revoke A50 at any time

She can't though. To revoke would mean no leave and completely remain with no PV first. MPs wouldn't go for that either.

To extend A50 there needs to be a reason otherwise EU won't agree. We are still arguing isn't a good enough reason.

They can’t take it off the table because it’s a legal part of article 50 that if we don’t do a deal we have to leave without a deal.

He is asking the PM to break a legal agreement. God knows, No Deal would be a disaster but as Corbyn pushed for A50 to be triggered and ordered a three line whip to get it through (he defied 428 whip instructions during the Brown/Blair government), he knows that good and well.

His arrogance is truly remarkable. He has enough money to be insulated from the problems No Deal may cause - the 'Man of the People' act is PR bollocks.

labourlist.org/2016/06/corbyn-article-50-has-to-be-invoked-now/

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/19/corbyn-to-impose-three-line-whip-on-labour-mps-to-trigger-article-50

Breakdown of rebellions against Labour whips sourced from The Public Whip.org.uk & Hansard:

revolts.co.uk/?p=932

Corbyn is a useless waste of space. He really hasn't a clue and his glaring incompetence is coming home to roost. But then again, he surrounds himself with other incompetent baffoons like Abbott and McDonnell. The members of the Labour party need to get rid of him for the sake of the party. Is there anyone who thinks he and his cabinet are capable of running the country?

How the hell can she just revoke A50?? How do you think that will go down? id love her to do that, but after the 2 1/2 year shitshow we've been through just to say 'Oh sorry, we're just going to forget about the whole thing' would be ridiculous. You would need another vote to do that. Again. If Labour want a PV or they want to revoke A50 just say so.

He is his own demise....this latest stunt has sent him crashing down in the polls. He couldn't even win a GE when TM said she'd bring back bloody fox hunting?!?! ( I swear to almighty God, TM was attempting to loose that one in 2017)...

Anyway I digress, he is a fool for not engaging with TM, his letter banning all others is childish.

He always wants to talk and hug it out, but somehow not now?

Pompous, public posturing, pedantic pleb that he is.

His amendment is dead in the water too. Tory rebels have said they won't vote for it, as have some Labour MPs.

The eu are playing a game of ‘who blinks first’ as well I think aren’t they?

I think their preferred options are:
1 no Brexit
2 transition period deal, and no possibility of a hard border in Ireland at end of it, ie Britain signing up to be a rule taker in perpetuity. Ie the option just voted down by HoC.
3 transition period deal, crash out/hard border at end of it
4 crash out/hard border now

So they are holding out for item 2, which is not accepted by uk parliament, but may end up with item 4. I think item 3 would probably get through HoC, and eu may blink at last minute. But I feel it would just be prolonging an inevitable crash out because there is no viable solution to the Irish border question.

A transition period would in theory give the eu and uk more time to prepare for no deal, but I think it would be another two years of arsing around because Uk can’t keave the eu without either breaking the gfa or imposing a border down the Irish Sea.

So really the options will boil down to no Brexit or hard Brexit, which puts us in breach of the gfa, doesn’t it?

The GFA worked because Ireland and GB were both governed by a common rule book.

"In perpetuity" would mean UK gets to stop making contributions, forever (after end 2020). EU does not want Backstop forever b/c it's completely unfair on rEU that UK gets benefits but pays nothing. Michael Gove explained all that patiently last week on Today Programme (I forget which morning, one of the 8:10am interviews).

EU insisted on sorting out Norn first. EU put Norn problem in the first phase of negotiations that's how important it was. UK resisted tooth & nail but finally agreed to Backstop in December 2017. EU naively thought it was done and dusted situation. Everyone KNEW about backstop as part of final package since Sept-December 2017.

How is putting backstop in first 9/24m of negotiations a game of chicken on EU's part?

UK can't figure out what they want or how to get it.

Thanks for explaining backstop from eu POV lljkk, makes sense to me now.

I think the uk knows what it wants doesn’t it - have cake + eat cake 🎂

Just to add that the UK should have put preventing a hard border between NI and Ireland above all else, together with guaranteeing the rights of eu citizens based in the Uk. They should have done that from the get go - anything else is morally unacceptable and, in the case of the Irish border, possibly illegal due to the GFA.

How the hell can she just revoke A50?? How do you think that will go down?

Apparently she can but it may be subject to legal challenge.

How do you think No-Deal will go down? the National Crime Agency has just been point on alert, no leave, training etc, 3500 troops on standby and a 1000 police for NI... days of queuing at Dover, not too mention the loss of the car industry, food/med shortages.

All this is predicted to happen by the pro brexit Government.

Revoke A50 and than have a UK Marshall plan to spend in the regions and a vote in law to revisit leaving the EU in 5 years

She cant do anything. Parliament can revoke A50. If a PV wont get through Parliament, a revocation of A50 wont get through either. Surely the only solution is a deal, which Labour are holding up with their non plan for Brexit. The DUP and the hard Brexiteers want Brexit to be harder. The Lib Dems dont want Brexit at all. We know what they want and why they are not voting for the deal on the table. Labour just seem to want to create mischief and make unfulfillable they know full well cannot be agreed to. Labour policy is not to revoke A50. It is not even to have a PV. They want to have an election, because that's exactly what we need at the moment

I think she'll revoke but to do so, she has to keep no deal on the table. Assume WA is voted down again at the last minute, so the choice is revoke/extend or no deal. Faced with that, the only way she can spin revoke is by saying "although it was contrary to the will of the people, a managed exit was not possible in the time we had (subtext: because Labour would not join with me to agree a WA). The remaining choice was revoke or no deal. In all good conscience, I cannot submit the country to the chaos of no deal, so feel the only responsible thing to do is revoke. It remains our intention to leave the EU eventually in a managed and smooth way, but we have learned that this cannot be achieved quickly". A clever person could spin that much better than me. To believe her, we all have to be feeling the pain of a pending "no deal" very acutely. She should be very secretly talking about this with the EU.

And then we'll all just be so delighted to have it over with that all rancour will disappear, and we'll be really happy that we had TM in charge all along, and history will be kind to her because she tried her hardest but evil forces contrived against her so in the end she did what she had to to save the nation. Maybe.

To be honest absolutely anything could happen. But I do think revoke is more likely than the press would have us believe.
What I am sure of is that if she takes no deal off the table, the deal will be voted through. Those 100+ hard brexiteers in the Tory party would all vote for it.

There no way anyone will revoke. Regardless of their own policies most MPs do believe no Brexit would be the wrong choice

I disagree, many MPs are remain supporting. Many of those acknowledge that the public wanted Brexit, winning by a majority in the referendum. So if A50 is revoked it will be because they simply can't find a suitable way forward.

I disagree too. I think most MP's know we are better off in Europe, but the mess is of their own making and they can't now fix it. They spent decades blaming the EU for their own incompetence. They were happy to leave the public ignorant about not only the benefits of being in the EU, but the amount of influence we ourselves had on EU laws, just choosing to blame the EU.
However, I think they are also running scared of losing their jobs. There is no guarantee that most people now want remain. Polls are not done on millions of people, just a few thousand that are registered to do polls or are asked in the street. If they unilaterally just revoke A50, there is a risk they will all just lose their jobs at the next election and the majority who voted for Brexit will never trust them again. A PV is the only way to really find out if this is really still what we want. However, that is also difficult, as I bet they wont even agree to the question. The Brexiteers aren't stupid enough to agree to a referendum that has 2 leave options and one remain option, as that will split the leave vote. A second in/out referendum runs the risk of Leave winning again on a hard Brexit ticket.