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Brexit
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Second Referendum

252 replies

MyNameIsArthur · 15/12/2018 09:37

If there was a second referendum, how would you phrase the question on the ballot paper? I thought maybe it should be phrased in the following way in two parts but I'm not sure. What do you think?

A) Do you wish for the UK to Remain in the EU or to leave the EU ?

B) If the majority of the UK votes to leave the EU, do you wish for the UK to leave with:

                    1         Theresa May's deal
                    2          No deal
OP posts:
1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 14:49

Thanks BorisBogtrotter, it actually helps underline that fact that manufacture is 'global' and you have to define how much 'input' is needed to make it 'British' or wherever.
The old classic Rolls Royces used to have Citroen air suspension parts if I remember correctly.

TheyBuiltThePyramids · 17/12/2018 14:53

Came to post that the article is 2 years old!

FishesaPlenty · 17/12/2018 15:07

Rolls Royce and Bentley are both owned by German companies. I'd suggest that the design and manufacturing is very much British though. The same can be said for JLR, Indian ownership but very much still a British manufacturer.

If you asked the average 60-ish year old to name a British car of the 70s/80s they're as likely (probably more likely) to name the Escort or Cortina, the Cavalier or Viva, as they are the Allegro or Marina. Ford and GM are of course US companies and their products were as likely to have been built in Germany as the they were in in the UK.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 15:24

Although EU/UK citizens rights are proposed to be broadly as they were I am not convinced they are exactly the same as they are at the moment. As a Brit in the EU my status will be the same as for a 3rd country citizen, not as an EU citizen. There may not ultimately be a big difference but the point is that it has been eroded.

BorisBogtrotter · 17/12/2018 15:51

"I'd suggest that the design and manufacturing is very much British though"

Except for those pesky engine blocks, and suspension, and brakes and all the other hard to manufacture stuff.

The detailing is done here, like old coach builders used to.

1tisILeClerc · 17/12/2018 15:57

{"I'd suggest that the design and manufacturing is very much British though"}
Yes of course the UK COULD do it all but another factor has just bounced onto the scene, certification.
Rolls Royce (big aircraft engines section) is now moving to Germany as certification in a 'third country' is not acceptable. Announced yesterday or day before.
The UK is legislating itself out of existence.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 17/12/2018 18:53

Maursh
You have expressed outrage about the IEA. Was there something in the message that you believe to be incorrect or misleading. Did any of you to listen to it? Do you know so much already that you have nothing to learn?

Nice deflection. You claimed the IEA were a credible source, that’s what we were pointing out. They aren’t.

Yaralie · 17/12/2018 19:07

I have just heard an interview by the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation where ultra-extreme-brexiter Daniel Hanaan said if there was a second referendum he and his fellow leavers should boycott it so it had no legitimecy. He said that Cameron had promised the 2016 (advisory) referendum would be decisive.

Unsurprisingly he was not asked "are you the same Daniel Hanaan who said during the referendum campaign "no-obody is talking about leaving the single market?"

Unsurprisingly he was not asked "how do you know that some people might not have boycotted that fraudulent referendum because they did not want to give it legitimacy?"

Unsurprisingly he was not asked "if you are so sure that you know about the will of the British people, why would you not let them show you what they think now by allowing them to vote?"

Unsurprisingly he was not asked what deal he and his fellow brexitextreemists might support other than the obviously catastrophic "no deal"

Unsurprisingly he was not asked "how could giving the British people the opportunity to vote with the benefit of the information they now have possibly be undemocratic?"

Don't you just wish we had a national broadcaster which allowed its interviewers to ask these questions?

noblegiraffe · 17/12/2018 19:32

Quite happy for a bunch of leavers to not vote in a 2nd referendum tbh. This boycott sounds like a great idea.

jasjas1973 · 17/12/2018 20:36

Yaralie

Long wondered why the media isn't pulling the Leave instigators up on their promises, when Hannan eventually was told the brexit hasn't planned out as he said it would, he blamed it (unchallenged ) on remainers.

DadJoke · 17/12/2018 20:55

The question should be fair to Leavers and Remainers, so not split the Leave vote. It should include known, concrete options, no promises to renegotiate. The options should not be excluded because they don’t have majority support in Parliament (none of them do). They shouldn’t exclude stupid or damaging options, otherwise we might as well just revoke article 50. I am going to assume the People’s Vote suggestion is pro-Remain.

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Remain a member of the European Union
Leave the European Union

If we leave the EU, should we leave with TM’s deal, or with no deal?

TM’s deal
No deal

Peregrina · 17/12/2018 22:34

Unsurprisingly he was not asked "are you the same Daniel Hanaan who said during the referendum campaign "no-obody is talking about leaving the single market?"

He was even repeating this after the result was known. Now, to be fair to him, a commitment to the Single Market was in the 2015 Tory manifesto, which I assume he signed up to.

MumUnderTheMoon · 19/12/2018 23:00

Brexit with the negotiated deal.
No deal brexit.
No brexit.

missesbiggens · 20/12/2018 00:31

You can't have a second referendum and split the leave vote, Mumunderthemoon. There's be a civil war! You think it's chaos now?

jm90914 · 20/12/2018 06:32

@missesbiggens

I’m a firm remainer, but I do agree with that. Splitting the leave vote would result in a remain win (which in my heart I’d love), but it would be grossly unfair (and wouldn’t do anything to resolve the divisions in the country).

If it happened, I couldn’t in good conscience vote remain. I’d have to vote for May’s deal.

MumUnderTheMoon · 20/12/2018 08:22

If those are the three options open to us then we should have the option to vote on them all. Perhaps a two stage process. "Knowing what you now know brexit or no brexit?" Then following that if brexit still wins "the negotiated deal or no deal?" It would drag things out but would be clear cut. As things stand neither leavers nor remainers are happy. Leavers voted based on promises that were unrealistic. What was promised was never deliverable. Now that people see that no matter how we leave we are worse off people may vote differently. The only way to truely draw a line under this is a second vote.

Moussemoose · 20/12/2018 08:25

If 3 options were available it wouldn't be a straight FPTP ballot.

A form of AV would be used.

The Brexit vote wouldn't be split.

DadJoke · 20/12/2018 08:27

My suggestion above is a two question process which will not split the Leave vote while giving everyone the choice of the kind of Leavebwe chose.

jm90914 · 20/12/2018 09:17

@moussemouse

Interesting - what is AV? I’m not familiar.

jm90914 · 20/12/2018 09:23

@dadjoke

Interesting idea. Renders my objections obsolete.

Whenever I think I’ve made my mind up, something else comes along to get me thinking again...

DadJoke · 20/12/2018 09:38

jn90914 one of the reasons I like mumsnet!

MutantDisco · 20/12/2018 09:40

There would be no civil war if Remain won a second ref, the Russians would try to foment it but most Brexiteers are too old or apathetic to take to the streets.

An Alternative vote style ballot with a two-way then three-way choice would still be the best option.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 20/12/2018 10:10

You can't have a second referendum and split the leave vote, Mumunderthemoon. There's be a civil war! You think it's chaos now?

All those pensioners taking to the streets, the towns will be awash with gammon Grin

1tisILeClerc · 20/12/2018 11:37

{All those pensioners taking to the streets, the towns will be awash with gammon}
The original demographics were pretty evenly divided with less than 10% variation in most age categories.

As more information about what the UK is LOSING comes to light I can see some very unhappy 'Remainers'. Don't forget that many were not aware of how much of the UK is integrated into the EU, this is not just 'stopping' but it will be taken away, so actually taking things backwards.

jm90914 · 20/12/2018 13:16

Well Putin has now made the “second vote is anti-democratic” argument:

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/20/vladimir-putin-theresa-may-brexit-fulfil-will-of-the-people

I’m not hugely in favour of a second vote, myself.

But people arguing the anti-democracy case, are you happy to be thinking along the same lines as lovely Vlad?

Personally, I think the strongest argument for not having one is that the polling is still extremely close and another close vote would be like poring petrol on a bonfire, I believe...