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Brexit

Can anyone please explain the lack of political corporation re. Brexit

122 replies

Iamdanish · 12/12/2018 16:21

Hi, not British. Can you please explain. From the outside it appears that when Britain voted leave, you (I) would expect all politicians to stand together in a united front against the EU in order to get the best deal possible.
What am I missing? From here it appears that making the deal wasn't the most tricky part but that domestically everybody is trying to destroy each other? I would expect my politicians to work together, and that the people would rebell against those who only saw it as a chance to excel in domestic politics.
Please set me right 😊 sorry for language, hope this makes sense.

OP posts:
jm90914 · 15/12/2018 10:47

In my personal view, it’s not just about our adversarial political system, but also about British culture in general.

In my own experience, Britain at large has a very hard, cynical and aggressive culture where the default position is negativity, cynicism, and sarcasm towards others.

In my personal experience, from an early age, kids at school (friends even) brutally attack each other with humour that centres around beating down others to make yourself feel bigger. Teachers engage in the same (or at least they did when I went to school).

None of these cultural traits favour functioning well in groups that represent a diverse range of opinion; hence why collaborative coalition governments are seen as entirely negative (and apparently very rarely achieve anything) in this country.

Of course, if I’m correct (it’s just my personal opinion) that’s just one of a whole host of variables that feed into it.

I’ll apologise if my view on British culture offends anyone. I was born here and spent 90% of my life living here, but the culture and the way people relate to each other here still completely baffles me.

When you say you no longer feel sorry for us, that’s the natural reaction. You reap what you sow.

Tanith · 15/12/2018 12:21

IamDanish ordinary people are being sold out by our politicians and have been for a long time. They actually have very little say on political matters although the politicians work very hard to give the illusion that they do. Ordinary people have felt disenfranchised for many years: many do not bother to vote because they see little point in doing so.
They feel ignored and regarded with contempt by whoever is in power. At the time of the Referendum, there was a distinct feeling that all the parties were the same, didn't matter who you voted for, they were all self-interested and would do what they wanted anyway.

I don't recognise jm90914's analysis of British culture. The people on the estates where I have lived with support each other - they've had to. There is a culture of unpaid voluntary work that is being tapped by the Government and employers. Of course there are those who are unpleasant, but most are not in my experience.

The previous Labour government was Centrist and some of their attitudes to the poorer areas were even right wing. People at the time saw immigration as a threat to their own jobs and a means of driving already low wages down even further. It was wonderful for those better off because, of course, they could get cheap builders, nannies, cleaners etc.. The resentment was not addressed and people found themselves on benefits and then vilified as "scroungers".
The Labour Government did a great deal to improve life, but they also failed to address this concern, regarding those people who complained as "bigots".
Many of us worked very hard to promote multiculturism: the big town I grew up in was always very welcoming of all cultures and I carried that on where I live now - a much smaller and more Conservative area.
However, I saw a lot of middle class Australian, white African and American people, as well as Europeans, settle in the area and a lot of Eastern European workers come to work here.
British workers were openly condemned as lazy and expensive, sometimes by their own politicians. What they really meant, of course, was that they wanted cheaper workers they could exploit.

When the Coalition Government was elected, they insisted on Austerity. There were no plans to raise wages to replace the money lost by ordinary people. They were expected to cope with reduced benefits and cuts to services while working longer hours and taking on more work with no reward. Unpaid overtime was expected, in work benefits were reduced or removed. They became poorer. They saw those better off than them continuing to enjoy tax cuts, holidays etc. and becoming richer. If they pointed out the unfairness, they were accused of "the politics of envy" Hmm.
When the Conservatives won the next election, Austerity was ramped up. Public service funding was cut to the bone, bursaries and grants were also cut, wages did not increase to meet the increasing demands on food, childcare and other essentials - for those lucky enough to have jobs.
Benefits were taken away from people who struggled without them, in many cases very unfairly. In my town is a man who lost his mobility car because he was told he wasn't disabled enough for it. That man has no legs and only one arm. Without his car, he couldn't get to work so he lost his job. His story is far from unusual.

That's the background to the Referendum. A lot of very angry, resentful people, worried about how to feed their families, wanting to give the Government a good jolt and having no real means of doing so. There were a lot of "Elite" posts on social media at the time that were designed to stir these people up.
Added to that was the plain and simple method of people like Nigel Farage being seen drinking in pubs with ordinary people, listening to their concerns. It really is that simple: people felt that someone was actually listening to them and hearing them for the first time. That personal touch that is so lacking in many politicians who expect the people to come to them (how??).
Nigel Farage was regarded as "one of us". It's since come out that he is very far from that - but why did no-one point this out at the time?

I won't go into the lies and poor campaigning that caused the Referendum result: it's been documented on here and elsewhere. It looks as though there was corruption and foreign interference that is still being discovered.

Our election process is First Past The Post. People here are not used to having a plain Yes/No vote. They are used to having to vote tactically, if they vote at all.
Many were astonished that their choice had actually won and this indicates that people voted in a way they really weren't expecting to win. I would guess that most didn't really have any opinion on the EU itself and the Referendum campaigning certainly didn't help there. I don't believe a lot of people thought about the EU at all. Their reasons for voting Leave are often to do with domestic policy and not the EU at all.
The Remain campaign failed to find out what ordinary people were feeling while encouraging them to go out and vote however they felt.

Thus followed a terrifying weekend where our politicians literally abandoned us to resign, write speeches, play bloody cricket (Boris Johnson Angry) while the right-wingers and racists felt they were given free reign to abuse anyone not British.
I had an EU client arrive at my door with her children on the Monday in tears, she was so frightened. Until she saw my "Welcome" poster in various languages, including her own, she genuinely thought I would turn her away with abuse. More than anything, I am furiously angry that she should have had to experience that fear - I really did not recognise my country at that point.

I feel very little has changed since, although my client has hopefully calmed down now.
Certain factions have continued to stir up racism and far-right sentiments. A hotchpotch of fairly useless politicians have argued and bickered and prevaricated, occasionally making firm decisions like invoking Article 50, then trying to decide what that actually means 🙄
For the first time I can ever remember, they are talking about The Will Of The People but they're making no attempt to actually find out what The People really want. There are lots of shouty types on social media and opinion polls, many of whom probably aren't even British. I think they're being ignored, too, though the polls are being quoted from time to time.
There's been little attempt to address the very real problems for ordinary working people, so there's still a feeling of bitter resentment against the better off. Therefore, they can't have a People's Vote because they're afraid of what the People might do.

Like most people I personally know, I voted Remain. Several of my neighbours voted Leave because the Leave campaign lied to them. It gave them false hope.
One of those neighbours is struggling on a low-paid job with three children, two of whom are disabled. Services and benefits have been cut for his family. Leave promised him something better and lied that money was being paid to the EU that should be kept and used to improve his life. He believed them. He is now disillusioned and posted on Social Media that he wishes he voted Remain and was angrily pilloried.
I will not condemn him: he wanted something better for his family and he believed a bunch of liars who said they could help him achieve this.
Reading the condemnation replies to his post, and on some of these threads for people like him makes me angry because I see no compassion for his situation and no solutions to help him. Just insults for a man who dared to want something better for his family because they might now experience some of the struggles he has coped with for years.

And the politicians will carry on wrangling and ignoring us because so many of them stand to make even more money if we leave the EU.
Do you know my MP is a multimillionaire? Many families in his constituency are having to rely on foodbanks. What a disgrace!

The Centrists are thinking of starting up a new Party. Probably the same as New Labour or similar. All too late to make any difference to whether we stay or leave, of course.

The Labour party - well, who knows? Most of them want to stay. They have a leader that is insisting on The Will Of the People, though 🙄. They're are giving the impression of listening to working class concerns - lots of questions in Parliament about buses, and that report on child poverty that the Government has dismissed. However they are allowing themselves to be side-lined with issues over people changing sex, misogyny, and anti-semitism. The other parties are also having these issues, but for some reason only Labour are expected to do something about it.

I think very little of it was about the EU at all. I believe most people in this country now want to stay with the EU, if only to give us some protection from the lunatics in power.

You asked why we are not rioting in the streets. That was tried in 2011 and the reaction from the Government was draconian, deliberately designed to discourage anyone from rioting again. The previous Conservative Government had a number of riots and David Cameron was determined he wouldn't have a repeat of it.
Lucky he did, really. Theresa May, when she was Home Secretary, cut the police force so they're now struggling to cope with ordinary crime (another cause for discontent) let alone riots.

1tisILeClerc · 15/12/2018 12:43

Thank you Tanith, that is a fantastic summary and so well balanced.

As a 'defining' moment in history, the Tory Thatcher years heralded a very 'Me Me Me' culture of individual greed in the UK with some making enormous amounts of money. She was also pro European particularly the idea of being in charge I expect.
I always feel the Labour party is on the right sort of lines in some ways but managing to back a horse that fell in the last race (supporting industry which is already been superseded by external factors).

Iamdanish · 15/12/2018 15:42

Tanith, thank you so much.
I am absolutely horrified. I thought your description would be suitable for perhaps the 1950'ies. The class division, poverty and lack of social consciousness is appalling.
I have always thought the Danish society was way too socialistic. Of course we have social problems and lack of education here but not in the scale you describe. From what you write it sounds as if your country is divided beyond repair? A division not only fueled by poor/rich but due to who voted what at Brexit.
I wonder about the Labor party though. Aren't they just "sitting it out", waiting for everything to fail instead of taking action to help prevent further division?

OP posts:
lonelyplanetmum · 15/12/2018 16:28

Tanith that was a mind blowing post.

I am incredulous that a man in your town lost his mobility car because he was told he wasn't disabled enough for it. That man has no legs and only one arm and without his car, he couldn't get to work so he lost his job. It's barbaric we have chosen governments that have brought us to this.

That's from the (formerly) 5 th richest country in the world. It's insane.

BackInTime · 15/12/2018 18:17

Great post Tanith, such a sad sorry situation.

BroomstickOfLove · 16/12/2018 06:26

Tanith pretty much summed it up. The divisions within our society have increased hugely over the past decade or so - I notice this on Mumsnet. When I first joined, people were sympathetic to those posters living in poverty. Now, the assumption seems to be that anyone e not working full-time in a well-paid job is lazy.

bellinisurge · 16/12/2018 08:35

There's a lot about @Tanith 's post that I agree with and a fair bit that I don't agree with.
I'm older than most posters on here and much now is reminiscent of divisiveness the Thatcher era.
I won't bore anyone with analysis of that. This is 2018, soon to be 2019 and all that is heading our way up to and after March. But this shit isn't new.
All I can say is I live in a solidly Leave voting area and I keep my mouth shut and my head down locally as someone who voted Remain.

Satsumaeater · 19/12/2018 11:12

What does unite politicians of all colours is playing the people of the UK as pawns to their own ends.

SNP - Scottish independence so won't vote for deal as a no deal and all the mayhem that ensues means another indyref is more likely

ERG - support disaster capitalism so won't vote for deal

Libdems/Greens/moderate Tories/moderate Labour - want to remain so won't vote for deal

DUP - not actually sure what they want, other than "no border in the Irish sea". I thought they wanted a soft Brexit but seems not.

They need to put the people first and their dogma a very distant last.

blackcurrantjam · 19/12/2018 11:50

I think many Leavers are watching and waiting and maintaining a dignified silence.

The uproar may yet come.

blackcurrantjam · 19/12/2018 11:54

I too am horrified at the behaviour of some politicians. Particuarly the opposition who are (attempting) to use this for their own grounds. I suspect it will backfire spectacularly in the end.

We are waiting for some resolution of the NI border issue and the backstop and the 'being unable to unilaterally leave it' issue, and then the politicians need to vote the WA through so we can get on with making a trade deal.

bellinisurge · 19/12/2018 11:55

" I think many Leavers are watching and waiting and maintaining a dignified silence. " my first snort with laughter of the day.

blackcurrantjam · 19/12/2018 11:58

Your snorting changes nothing.

missesbiggens · 19/12/2018 12:04

blackcurrant is right.

The silent majority. Leave voters appear to be as rare as hens teeth, and nearly as rare as Tory voters. And yet... here we are. Leaving the EU under a Tory government. What does that tell you?

You can't reason with stupid and so most leave/tory voters are intelligent enough to disengage from the shouting match and make their own decisions away from the shrill screaming.

That's why there are echo chambers of remain voters everywhere. That's why the polls are always wrong.

blackcurrantjam · 19/12/2018 12:14

It doesn't add up that 17.4 million people won't object strenuously if this isn't implemented.

I also think for some it was 'vote out, then vote the tories out,' but labour are being extraordinarily blind to this fact.

howabout · 19/12/2018 12:22

I also think for some it was 'vote out, then vote the tories out,' but labour are being extraordinarily blind to this fact.

Agree with this. Even getting rid of DC/GO was a start. I wonder if the last GE would have been different if Labour had got off the fence in favour of proper Brexit.

missesbiggens · 19/12/2018 12:40

I doubt it. Corbyn is a huge sticking point and McDonnell is a terrifying prospect to even then most ardent of Labour voters. I think Labour have virtually no chance of getting in during or soon after Brexit because of the fear that they may not be able to drive the economy as hard as it needs to buffer the effects of reduced trading with the EU. Bexit AND McDonnell at the same time is the stuff of most people's nightmares.

howabout · 19/12/2018 13:21

and yet most of London votes Labour .....

missesbiggens · 19/12/2018 13:30

right, and....?

bellinisurge · 19/12/2018 13:34

And yet most of London voted Remain. As did NI.
But here we are.

missesbiggens · 19/12/2018 14:05

Yep, here we are. Still a Tory government. Which was my point.....

howabout · 19/12/2018 14:09

And.... London is the self-professed engine of the UK economy but is voting increasingly Labour despite having JC and JMcD in charge. Londoners really don't seem terrified of JC. Very few Labour voters outside London are bothered about them trashing the economy given what the post Thatcher Liberal consensus followed by austerity has done.

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