Can anyone please explain the lack of political corporation re. Brexit

[Iamdanish]

Hi, not British. Can you please explain. From the outside it appears that when Britain voted leave, you (I) would expect all politicians to stand together in a united front against the EU in order to get the best deal possible.
What am I missing? From here it appears that making the deal wasn't the most tricky part but that domestically everybody is trying to destroy each other? I would expect my politicians to work together, and that the people would rebell against those who only saw it as a chance to excel in domestic politics.
Please set me right 😊 sorry for language, hope this makes sense.

Sadly Brexit is some in the UK wanting to turn away from international friendship and cooperation. Particularly strange as UK citizens are probably more of a mongrel mix of western Europeans than the original countries.

Hatelsnotgood, it doesn't feel unique 😊, we are small and are quite fractioned politically, especially concerning immigrants.
But as I have now learned from this thread, we do have a different outlook, perhaps because we are a small country.

Thank you all so much for your thoughts it has been enlightening. Just saw TM survived. Best of luck whatever you wish for 😊.

Iamdanish
Do you not travel to other countries? Of course there is no particular reason to unless you want but the idea of jumping on a train or plane to anywhere in Europe easily is so appealing. Of course you can travel anywhere but to do it almost without preparation feels good.

One of the biggest issue is that there's a huge number of politicians who refuse to accept the vote and there for, are trying to deter Brexit from happening. This is just my opinion but as I see it, if May steps down and is replaced...She should be replaced by a Leave MP who believes in Brexit. There's a massive numbers of MPs who are pretending like they care for democracy just to get ahead of of the PM but you've got to question what kind of deal they would try to get as well. Corbyn would be worse for Brexit in my opinion, it's obvious he doesn't want it to happen at all! Like I've said, with someone as PM who doesn't truly believe in Brexit, they (MPs and parliament) will try to slow this thing down or completely stop it and I hope when Brexit doesn't happen, there's riots. Not upholding democracy is very dangerous.

Like I've said, with someone as PM who doesn't truly believe in Brexit, they (MPs and parliament) will try to slow this thing down or completely stop it and I hope when Brexit doesn't happen, there's riots. Not upholding democracy is very dangerous

Well, riots are hardly democratic and you are inciting violence and criminality, innocent people have died in riots, property destroyed and Police serious injured and want that? nice person aren't you.

How is more democracy "dangerous" ? if the uk wants to really leave the EU, they''l win easily.

BUT i think you are correct, MPs realise the damage brexit will do to their constituents and are scared of being blamed for job loses and lower std's of living/public services, most are wealthy enough not to directly affected, that will be very damaging for democracy.

chloem93
It is a bit difficult to get fully on board with the 'democratic' argument as it has been shown that it was not a fairly fought referendum with targeted influences through social media and the like.
There was also the issue of blatant lying, £350 Million written on a bus for example.
There was no mention of the incredible cost of the exercise or that by leaving and abandoning CU/SM that many industries will become nonviable. If you had been told that you will be losing around £1,000 per person per year in pay, and that around a million well paid workers jobs are at risk, would you have voted leave. Any suggestions of this sort were shouted down as 'project Fear' but 2 years on they are well on the way to being project reality.
There is now a question of who may riot in future. Remainers who are angry at having lost so much, or Leavers who will discover that things they were promised won't happen? The government is not going to throw billions into regenerating poor areas of the UK and with declining industry, finances will get tighter. Or would leavers riot because 'democracy' was not seen to happen?

British society is very divided. There are fault lines going back decades, centuries and in some cases, a millennia that still play out in everyday politics.

That’s largely to do with it being an island, off the coast of a large land mass in one direction but with a big ocean on the other side. So migratory pressures are exerted from the landmass, but there’s not really anywhere to go that easily.

It has inculcated a mindset and culture where at some point you have to stand and fight against overwhelming odds because there is nowhere to run.

One of the issues with Brexit is that it has more in common with a religion than a fact based choice, there is a lot of talk about belief. Failures are attributed to lack of belief rather than political realities being acknowledged.
There hasn't been a huge outcry because the country is divided. Large sections are bored witless and never want to hear about it again but assume because the UK has been fine for decades it will continue to be so regardless.
A chunk wanted a really hard Brexit and don't want to compromise.
Another chunk want no Brexit at all and nothing less than a very soft Brexit would work.
The country isn't getting any less divided with time so there is limited pressure to work together.

I think the crux of why there's no political co-operation is because this is not about two sides needing to get together to fight against a common enemy, such as we might do in wartime. Instead, our fellow citizens have become 'the enemy', so why should we 'co-operate' with them in any way? This is the single, most diivisive thing that has happened in this country for many decades (centuries?). One group has voted to remove rights from another group and, in the process, to almost certainly make them poorer. As another poster said, Brexit is like a religion. There are believers and non-believers (and some agnostics who never cared or who no longer care). It isn't a case of left versus right, or rich versus poor, however much people try and spin the line about this being some kind of proletarian uprising.

I think another reason for the lack of 'co-operation' is that despite asking the question for more than two years, remainers have not been given one single reason to 'believe' in Brexit, ie no convincing argument has been put forward as to why it will be good for the country. Why, therefore, would we co-operate in the destruction of our own lives?

IMO there are three categories - people that are so disenfranchised they have nothing to lose so Brexit is irrelevant, people who care deeply about how leave will affect their lifestyle, jobs and standard of living and those who are incredibly wealthy or who stand to benefit from chaos and disaster.

I also believe that there has been years of negativity towards the EU in the UK in the media and from the government blaming the EU for everything. Even from ans education perspective there is little time spent learning and understanding the mechanisms and benefits of the EU which was not my experience growing up in an EU country where the outlook was much more positive about the EU. The UK really has an air of superiority and lots of this is about how people really do believe that we can go back in time to being a great Empire ruling the world.

I don't think, when it comes down to it, most people care either way about the EU in the UK. Prior to the referendum campaign iirc less than 10% rated it as a top concern. This was why Cameron thought Remain would win decisively. The trouble is the apathy was fairly even sided rather than pro status quo.

Probably get shouted at for this as per, but the reality is no-one in the UK or EU truly believes the UK will ever fully sign up to the EU "ever closer union" project and neither Remain nor Leave or the EU want to pull up the drawbridge so wherever we land it will be neither Remain nor Leave but some pragmatic mish mash.

In these circumstances it is difficult to get enthusiastic either way but very easy to get frustrated with all politicians and the EU spending over 2 years fixating on nothing. No point complaining though as they are all equally useless and determined to use it as a distraction from dealing with ANYTHING that really matters.

The UK economy had better than predicted GDP up to October, but November retail so far looks bad. The German and French numbers this week are terrible and, I think, bump us and Italy off the bottom of the G7 charts. These are the economic issues which need addressing. Yes, a decent trading relationship would help, but wrangling over it while ignoring the fundamental flaws in EU and UK monetary and fiscal policy makes it very difficult to take politicians seriously.

Oh dear, I have become a little wiser from your answers thank you.

I started out feeling sorry for you for being " sold out" by your politicians, hence the op. BUT now I'm not sure, it seems that everybody just wants it their own way. Nothing we (EU countries) can do to ease the way except give you Brexit with the same favorable conditions as now, but without the responsabilities. Which is not going to happen. All countries would then want the same of course and you just cannot say no to responsibility and still yes to the advantages 😊.

Just saw an interview with our prime minister, he was asked what he thought of British politics re. Brexit, he looked as if caught in the headlights then answered "ooh interesting", trying to come up with something better he thought for a while then said " no that will have to be it" while squirming (didn't say we have super politicians either).
But I think the general opinion outside of the uk has reached a stage of disbelief that you don't agree on anything 🙁.

On another note I asked up tread what the no-dealers expect to gain. Noone answered. I found another tread about this and am still none the wiser 😊.

But hey ho, I am a little more informed but I have stopped feeling sorry for you 😁.

Iamdanish
If you look on the Westmisterenders series of threads (they have been going for about 3 years!) there is more detail than you might want.
The bottom line is that almost nothing of what 'Leavers' want is actually achievable, except blue passports (to be made in France) and a reduction in EU immigration. Unfortunately it was said that many things were achievable, without checking whether it was. If the UK really was 'superior' to Germany in terms of GDP, it would have been, but with the resources available is less than half of Germany, similar to France but above many others, partly because the UK is rather bigger than most of them.

poster 1tisILeClerc, thank you for the suggestion, have been there, gave up because the treads I visited were either very one-sided and if not blew up in calling each other ignorant.

Iamdanish
It is very one sided if you take out the elements of racism (not wanting foreigners) and the fact that Sovereignty was never really 'lost'. There isn't much left.
I suppose you could tell 'us' whether you feel as a Dane that you have lost sovereignty. In some respects you will have lost a little in that some of your laws are being discussed by Brussels. Do you feel that is a problem? I think that Denmark opts out of some things as there are only a few countries that have signed up to all the possible regulations. As soon as you trade or have agreements with other you always lose a little, but you have to look at the benefits overall. So much of what the EU does is hidden from day to day life. It is there of course but you have to look and question to find out what it is.

Brexit promised different things to different people. I got leaflets through my door (not official leave campaign) promising one thing, called my sister in a different part of the country and she'd got one promising the exact opposite. We laughed about the absurdity at the time.

Brexit has become about more than just leaving the EU now though. Everyone has 'skin in the game', everyone has something to lose.

I live in Denmark now (hurrah), and although I've only been here a couple of years, I was in another EU country most my life. I am British but think I see Britain 'from the outside' a little more than the average brit due to watching and following news from my adopted countries. To try and explain by comparison - the UK works (very broadly speaking here!) by two groups setting out their ideas in 'adversarial' positions... opposite to each other. They will then fight it out and almost always find a middle ground that both can live with. DK and my 'home' EU country on the other hand seem to start from an understanding that they don't agree, but agree to work together. Over time they 'pull apart' from each other. Whichever is the most successful at 'pulling' will get more of what they want.

I think the problem with Brexit is that anywhere between the two adversarial positions is totally unpalatable to everyone (except Theresa!) and is being weaponised by the government to avoid a 'no deal' brexit. Personally I don't think MPs will respond well to (let's call a spade a spade here) blackmail.

I'm not a political scientist/politician/historian/sociologist - these are just my observations and therefore I accept they might not be inaccurate reflection of what actually happens. I thought it may be helpful give the 'average joe's' perspective.

(as a aside - watching the danish UK correspondent on the news on danish TV tonight trying to explain why the deal won't go through the UK parliament did make me smile - everyone seems totally baffled!)

Danetobe, thank you, yes apparently our initial "auto- reaction" to problems in Denmark is very different to the English way. I kind of knew that but not to that extend!
And yes I posted to get the "average Joe" explanations, much more enlightening than the Danish news 😂
And velkommen hope you are being treated nicely 😄.

Sorry British way ☺️

But hey ho, I am a little more informed but I have stopped feeling sorry for you
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Please don't stop feeling sorry for us. We need all the sympathy we can get.

Remember that half of us really, really don't want this. We are being dragged out of the EU against our will, and there isn't a political party with any significant statistical support to speak for us.

Some very inciteful posts in this thread but just to add my tuppeneth-

Tories - divided. More than half are remainers And see that TM deal is worse than remain as we lose our special position in the EU. The brexiteers don’t like the deal and prefer no deal, and are not bothered about the potential suffering for ordinary people because they are relatively rich and can weather the storm

Labour - voting against TM because want to bring down the Tory government. Suspect most want to remain.

SNP - want to remain as Scottish people voted to remain. Fair play.

DUP - I’ll never understand this lot but think they want hard leave

It’s labour I really don’t understand. We are at real risk of hard leave which will make the poor even more vulnerable, which is normally what labour is against . But labour are gambling with this for their own selfish power play. Or are they also hoping to remain and that’s what it’s about?

But for all, TM deal is worse in their opinion than their preferred option remain or leane, so they are taking a gamble to try to get what they want. Scary stuff.

Oh and just to add that I would have voted Lib Dem in the last election, because they promised a people’s vote. But it would have been a wasted vote because in my electoral ward it’s safe Tory seat, with the main opposition labour. So I voted labour to try to scupper Brexit, but my Tory MP got in anyway. But I think again it highlights how complex an issue this is and how people’s actions and motives are not always obvious. Maybe the plan has always been to produce such a farce that “the people” give up on Brexit

One thing is for sure, there is a lot of political chess playing going on.

What is now making me really angry about the 'Westminster machine' is that the EU have been saying for 3 months? that the WA is 'the roadmap' to a smooth exit. That is it, NO MORE but various bits of the government and the press are still saying 'renegotiate'. No you dimwits, renegotiating on the WA plan is OVER. If you don't like it, tough that is ALL you are going to get.
The WA is of course not the final result but ONLY a route to get to the result and the path starts on 30 March and ends some years later (transition period). There is sufficient room to wiggle in the WA so that by negotiation the UK can look towards the EU or away from the EU but as it is written business and most of life as we know it can continue until the many elements covered in the WA are finally agreed.
The UK was involved in writing the rules and is now trying to pretend it is 'special' and that the rules don't apply. I am with the 450 Million EU citizens and say this is the 'WA deal' take it or leave it, as Mr Junker has had to repeat yet again.
The UK does not have to accept the WA of course but the other 2 choices are to 'remain' or to 'crash out' suddenly on 29 March.
The EU has far more important things to be sorting out other than the UK being idiots (well a significant number of them) who think they are somehow 'special'. No they aren't and I say that as a Brit!

Brexiters hate analogies so I will suggest it is like going to a tiny cafe.
The menu is Coffee, Tea or as a default, nothing.
The cafe closes at 5pm so you have to make your mind up what you want. It is that simple!