Alternative to withdrawal agreement

[missesbiggens]

Well here is 1001 - having a withdrawal agreement is not the problem is it? The problem is the contents of it. Think about it.

The non-negotiable contents.

No a WA is not itself the problem but May’s red lines.

Without them we could have a Norway + CU.

Well, yes. Non-negotiable, apparently. However a legal term that takes away the UK's sovereign right to leave any agreement without the approval of the other side is not an acceptable term. If it's non- negotiable then the agreement is void, parliament can't accept it. If parliament then keep sending the PM back to renegotiate an un-negotiable deal then we have to ask if our members of parliament are actually sane.

If the withdrawal agreement is not agreed by leaving date, i.e. renegotiated, then we leave with no deal. There are no alternatives, and parliament won't be able to do a thing about it.

Hi@missesbiggens . You don't get a transition period without a withdrawal agreement. If TM's WA isn't good enough, what should the WA agreement say. That is acceptable to the EU such that it can be agreed.
Tick. Tock.

No back stop Bellini. Keep up!

But if there is no backstop the Eu won't agree.

If the EU won't change the agreement to remove the backstop, or allow us to unilaterally leave it, then we can't agree it. You keep answering your own question here.

Yup, thoughtabout it.
option 1, Remain. Not what was voted for originally.
Option 2, Crash out with nothing. A SERIOUSLY bad move.
Option 3, Adopt the WA as written and start negotiating properly.

Although option 3 is a compromise, it is NOT the final deal, meaning that THIS is only the deal to get the UK into a transition period without too many serious problems it leaves the door open to proper negotiating. The WA as it stands, yes it looks 'bad' from a UK point of view but it has to be borne in mind that the UK is not the 'all powerful' ruler of half the planet that it was 150+ years ago but is in fact a small handful of islands where even then there is no harmony. Had the UK negotiators acted in good faith and with a constructive frame of mind 3 years ago things would have been a lot different.
The world has changed drastically since the start of the EEC in the 1970s and up until 2016, the UK was at the top table with the movers and shakers of one of the three big power blocs in the world.
There are no new continents to be explored, conquered and exploited and the suggestion that this small island can again dominate the world is farcical.

And then we leave with No Deal which any sane person wants to avoid.
So, in short, it is TM WA or No Deal. I asked for alternatives to WA that avoid No Deal. You don't have an alternative.

We cannot agree the agreement with a backstop with no unilateral means to leave. If that was changed, parliament would push it through tomorrow. The EU is refusing to budge so they can make us bend over just that little bit more.

However, Juncker said yesterday that there would be no further negotiation but they would be happy to bring further clarification to the WA.
My money is on them backing down on that clause but without it looking like they are giving ground.

Bellini, you being disingenuous. The answer is obvious, the other side won't agree. We crash out if the backstop isn't removed or changed. What other option could there be? The answer is to change the contents of the WA; that's your answer. There isn't another one!

The backstop is needed to avoid a border between NI and Ireland to protect GFA. Unless you can think if another way of doing that?
EU will not shaft GFA and Ireland fir your sake @missesbiggens

They are shafting it left right and centre Bellini. Half of Northern Ireland are absolutely against the backstop. Guess which half isn't?

Remind me, how did NI vote in the referendum.

What has that got to do with anything?

The EU will not back down on the backstop clause as it protects lives in NI. The UK government has shown itself to be completely untrustworthy over the last 3 years in sayings and deeds. The EU has a complicated joint responsibility for NI and it is standing by it's commitments to preserve life.

Apparently how people voted in the referendum is rather important

Apparently there are alternative technical solutions that can be used, although I haven't any idea what they might be. Just that they exist.

But they didn't vote to stay in the EU separated from the UK, which is clearly very important.

The only party vigorously opposed to the backstop for NI are the DUP as all the others, while not necessarily being ecstatic about it, understand it is necessary. There is also the more important issue that if the UK bothers to negotiate properly the backstop will not be needed.

The EU won't back down on the back stop.

There are no technological solutions that do not involve infrastructure. Even a little ANPR camera or a bar code reader fir a smart border is infrastructure. Not saying a technological solution is impossible. But there isn't one now. Maybe its only a year or two away, in which case we could set it up in bye transition period and never need the backstop.

Ah! Are you trying to read the will of the people in NI and yet no one can read the will of the people in rUK?

I suspect the EU care less about the Good Friday Agreement and more about using the backstop as a tool to retain power and control over the trade negotiations. It allows them to keep the upper hand. If we don't capitulate, we enter the backstop (aka the Hotel California)

There are not technical solution to the backstop. That just isn't the case. You can't Xray and identify goods in the back of lorries travelling at speed. You need regulatory checks on goods between two differing regulatory countries. The backstop is the only solution, that or remaining in the EU.

Bellini, I am not trying to read the will of the people of NI. I am just pointing out that they didn't vote to leave the UK, they voted to remain in the EU. It was a factual statement, I wasn't mind-reading.