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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
lonelyplanetmum · 05/12/2018 19:15

Whiff Grin

1tisILeClerc · 05/12/2018 19:25

It would seem that most who are suggesting 'leave' still manage to sneak a few things that have been shown to be untrue into whatever they are saying.

borntobequiet · 05/12/2018 19:26

I heard IDS say that as well, Peregrina. Looked on the CAA website, nothing there.
I think he was making it up.

Moussemoose · 05/12/2018 19:29

GirlsBlouse17 one of the things I have learnt in the last 2 years is that something doesn't have to be a betrayal, people just have to feelz that it is.

If people think they have been betrayed then they have and you need to discuss it like it is an iron clad fact. If you don't you are patronising, southern and a member of the elite.

Buteo · 05/12/2018 19:57

born and peregrina - a week or two ago there was a thread about flying in early April, someone who said they were in the aviation industry was posting that flying outwith the EU was more likely to be OK in the event of no deal than flying to an EU destination (but they wouldn’t get into too much detail).

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 05/12/2018 20:01

I understand why people would feel betrayed if they voted Leave in full expectation that, as Cameron promised, this would be honoured, and it didn't happen. But I too would feel betrayed if we leave without me having had chance to have my say on the deal, since there's never been a mandate for a particular kind of Brexit. Both of those perspectives are reasonable and I'd hope Leavers would acknowledge my feelings of betrayal in the event of leaving with no say on the deal, as I would theirs if we were to stay in.

There's no way out of this now that's not fundamentally undemocratic, so best to choose the undemocratic route that doesn't completely fuck our economy.

Gumpendorf · 05/12/2018 20:02

There have been a couple of open skies agreements reached in the past week. With the IS and with Canada.

I'm not sure how many need to be sorted post Brexit.

www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-and-usa-reach-post-brexit-open-skies-accord-453995/

www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/uk-and-canada-conclude-post-brexit-open-skies-agreem-454085/

Moussemoose · 05/12/2018 20:40

There's no way out of this now that's not fundamentally undemocratic

I would take issue with the "undemocratic" bit. I think there is no way out of this that does not involve compromise. People think democratic means the majority always wins but democracy also means looking after and considering minorities.

We need to compromise and that is a 'bad thing' in U.K. politics. We always need winners and losers and that has poisoned the debate.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 21:21
  • There's no way out without angering a significant group of people

That's because that arrogant fool Cameron thoughtlessly started a process that has massively exacerbated existing splits,
so we have a seriously divided country,
split into Remainers & Leavers,
with the Leavers themselves split

  • There's not even a Brexit that doesn't anger a significant group of Leavers

That's because the Leave campaign deliberately & unscrupulously targeted completely different - and CONFLICTING promises - at different groups of potential Leave voters

These Leave cannot / will not accept they were conned and that the promises are not possible

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 21:25

re Citizenship

Although only 7% of applicants fail / withdraw from the language & citizenship tests,
we can never know how many were put off from even applying because of these.

Those who would have particular difficulties are those with certain disabilities, those who are now elderly, those who are dreadful at languages - it can't just be only Brits ! - anyone who can't cope with exams

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 21:30

I remember many years ago working with someone in the Midlands who said his wife couldn't speak English because he didn't let her 😡 - he didn't want her to be able to cope without him
He also said his parents had never learned English and had no plans to do so

They weren't from the EU, but I would be concerned about the most vulnerable, who would also probably be helpless if they were suddenly sent "back home"

Talkinpeece · 05/12/2018 21:41

BigChocFrenzy
Although only 7% of applicants fail / withdraw from the language & citizenship tests,
I passed that test.
Most of the staff at the centre where I took it admitted that they would have failed it.

Talkinpeece · 05/12/2018 21:50

PS Where I was working today, voted massively leave last time. HUGE Amounts of regret now.

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 21:52

< impressed 💐 > TiP

I read a few of the citizenship questions in the media - if they are to be believed, of course

The questions seemed TV trivia, which I could not have answered,
whereas I could answer without revision most reasonable questions on UK history, Constitution, basic UK law for the lay person etc

EtVoilaBrexit · 05/12/2018 21:56

www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018/12/05/raab-s-threats-to-ignore-the-grieve-amendment-threatens-cons

Raab's threats to ignore Grieve amendment threaten constitutional crisis

The government wanted to simply tell MPs that we were leaving the EU without a deal if May's agreement falls through. This amendment means that MPs can say: 'Actually, we want you to do the following thing.' That thing could be a second referendum, or to petition for an extension of Article 50, or to revoke Article 50 entirely. Whatever might command a majority in the Commons.
Brexiters are now trying to minimise the implications of this vote. They are doing this by presenting extremist policies as technicalities.
What is being suggested here is very serious indeed. It is that the government would ignore parliament on the most serious issue in our post-war history. Less than 24 hours after being found in contempt of parliament for refusing to abide by its demands, they're doing it all over again. After a historic moment of disgrace, they are carrying on exactly as they were before.

A very good article from I Dunt. The answers about the Grieve amendment from Raab and Leadsom are chilling really.

Peregrina · 05/12/2018 22:07

So flights to the USA and Canada should be OK. I have been to neither country and don't have any plans to go. I do go to France, Spain, Netherlands, Germany, the Baltics, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Italy and these countries matter to me significantly more. What about them?

BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 22:18

EtVoila Grieve himself has said that his amendment does not legally stop Brexit

It has great political significance if the HoC instructs the govt to do something, but is not legally binding,
because our (unwritten) Constitution has no effective means for the HoC to in effect rule / order a vital action, via a puppet PM.

The PM as leader of the govt has vastly more independent executive power, with fewer legal checks and balances,
than those of comparable democracies.

The one really effective weapon that the HoC has is its ability to bring down any govt via a Vote of No Confidence.

This HoC is unusual in that this power is actually effective, because the govt - most unusually for the UK - is a minority one

What the HoC lacks - or rather the govt & the Official Opposition MPs both lack - is the will to put countr before party

As long as Tory Remainers in particular are not prepared to use this nuclear option, then they are not using the full power of the HoC as laid down in our Constitution

Only the PM can revoke A50,
because the process of revocation requires the PM to send a signed letter informing the EU Commision that the UK is revoking.

We don't even know if the HoC will ever get the bottle to pass a motion to revoke

  • and a motion is not legally binding; only a bill is binding So, the HoC will have to find some bill on which to tack an amendment
BigChocFrenzy · 05/12/2018 22:22

Should be no news to anyone here, but ...

Hammond:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-warehousing-insight/hoarding-for-brexit-sparks-race-for-warehouse-space-in-britain-idUSKBN1O41Y2

"Years, not months, would be needed for Britain’s ports to be ready to handle the customs and regulatory checks required under the standard World Trade Organization terms favoured by some Brexit supporters

To be very frank with you ... the planning system^ might struggle to approve such significant infrastructure changes in two years,”^

Motheroffourdragons · 05/12/2018 22:41

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

prettybird · 05/12/2018 23:09

What does their opinion matter Confused

The people have spoken. Brexit means Brexit Hmm

mathanxiety · 05/12/2018 23:20

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers_in_the_United_Kingdom#Division_between_organs_of_parliament

This is the background to the looming constitutional crisis - the issues at stake are the same as those behind the English Civil War.

To a certain extent, when any government is hanging on by the skin of its teeth and especially when there is a minority government (as we may yet see) the balance of power tilts toward Parliament. This current government is trying to assert executive primacy over Parliament.

Theresa May is determined to roll the dice for very high stakes here. I am not sure if she really understands the constitutional implications of what she seems hell bent on doing.

It is glaringly obvious that Andrea Leadsom and her fellow boneheads are either incredibly stupid or have absolutely no knowledge of English history. Could of course be both.

I don't think Loathsome's words were thuggish in the sense of implying that there would be a comeuppance for Parliament seeking to assert its rights or even for certain MPs, or that one day everyone would regret the assertion of the principle that Parliament can hamstring a government (I don't think she understands this) but rather implying that she feels complete contempt for Parliament because it has thrown a roadblock in the path of Brexiters seeking to railroad a no deal. She was letting off some of the superabundance of the hot air that she generates on most topics.

lonelyplanetmum · 05/12/2018 23:28

This has probably been posted before as it dates from October, but it is comforting ( and discomforting) that an academic nailed then almost verbatim what is now coming to pass...

" this. The defeat of a Brexit deal in a meaningful vote before the end of 2018, followed by a general election, would see the uncertainty stretch into February, yet might still not permit a clear decision on what form of Brexit is pursued—if, indeed, it continues to be pursued. The only remaining constitutional mechanism would then be again to consult the people"

" . As Vernon Bogdanor, one of the country’s leading constitutional scholars, put it in an article in the Financial Times on 9 December 2016: “Our exit from the EU depends upon the continuing consent of the people. The notion of finality is quite alien to the spirit of democratic politics. For it must always remain open for a sovereign people to reassess its verdict”....

blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/10/18/the-uk-is-heading-towards-a-frightening-constitutional-crisis-over-brexit/

OlennasWimple · 06/12/2018 01:28

Plaice Mat King - still all very confusing

nuttynutjob · 06/12/2018 02:36

Professor Bogdanor have a lecture about Brexit in 2017 and talked about that another people's vote might happen because Parliamentary Sovereignty has been undermined (as I have understood it at that time) here is the clip of that lecture.

www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/britain-and-the-eu-in-or-out-one-year-on

He will be doing another lecture in March 2019
www.gresham.ac.uk/lectures-and-events/brexit-future-of-britain

Tidbit, Cameron was his student at Oxford

nuttynutjob · 06/12/2018 02:37

gave

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