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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
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lonelyplanetmum · 06/12/2018 07:07

I hadn't realised that we are persisting with the new registration system that Still doesn't work on iPhones but needs another type of phone. It's crazy. Is this still right?

Also if EU citizens change their number or details and don't update it then your registration seems to be invalid.Also is the same system applicable to non EU passport holders?

" Each individual in the system, including children, must be linked to an e-mail address and a phone number—another source of anxiety for lawyers and campaigners. “Most of my young people use those ones that give you six months of free Internet and then you chuck it,” Trevena said. She stressed ... the importance of updating their details.

“If you change your number, you need to call them and let them know. Otherwise you will get locked out of your status,” “You are going to need your status for every job, every house."

www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-the-uk/staying-in-britain-after-brexit

lonelyplanetmum · 06/12/2018 07:16

Found the answer to my own question that ecause Apple does not allow third-party apps to access the near-field communication capabilities needed to scan passport chips.

The scheme will operate online, accessed via the Gov.UK service and via a smartphone app, limited to Android devices but that the Apple issue is expected to be resolved soon..

EtVoilaBrexit · 06/12/2018 07:56

lonely YY about bee;able to do it via a computer. That’s why there has been talks about people been able to receive help from their library too.

But I don’t think Apple will ever agree to change their system because it is part of their privacy system and would weaken the iPhone security.

EtVoilaBrexit · 06/12/2018 07:58

YY about updating information.
Also the photo you will scan is the one everyone will see when they do a search (potential boss, landlord etc etc) so having a good one is actually quite important (and no this hasn’t been advertised either)

lonelyplanetmum · 06/12/2018 08:06

It seems it only applies to EU citz with a possibility for a voluntary similar system for UK citizens eventually.

HesterThrale · 06/12/2018 09:08

Just listened to TM being interviewed on the Today prog. I thought she sounded shaky. The usual soundbites, self-repetition and question avoidance.
When JH asked her about a Plan B if the WA is voted down, she had nothing. Just changed the subject.

Afterwards, Laura Kuenssberg said that although TM has said that it’s this WA, No Deal or No Brexit, there is a 4th way: Parliament wresting control from the Executive and finding another way through. LK said this seems increasingly likely.

bellinisurge · 06/12/2018 09:35

I heard that too @HesterThrale . I think TM was standing up pretty well to JH's style of questioning. It's telling that JH didn't really ask her about the 4th option (which is pretty bloody obvious to a nerd like moi) because she wouldn't give him an "in".

Talkstotrees · 06/12/2018 09:45

I don’t understand what the 4th way would be though. Current WA, no deal, no Brexit are the only options. Aren’t they?

Grinchly · 06/12/2018 10:10

It was a terrible interview. Did anyone hear the extended vox pop earlier in the prog with lots of people from Bedford? Deeply, deeply depressing. I do genuinely believe that another referendum would result in leave again.

It's a dreadfully 'elitist' thing to say but the issues are so complex it's clear they are far beyond the grasp of most. People therefore vote on emotion rather than logic, trotting out the same cliched nonsense they were cleverly fed in 2016.

Where I work views are split very clearly according to class and education. A debate took place in the office yesterday amongst the ( older, female) admin staff. It quickly became apparent there is no reasoning with most leavers. Out it all came- ' they need us more than we need them' 'they' won't let anything really bad happen, millennium bug blah blah blah.

I allowed myself a sliver of optimism yesterday but am back in the gloomies now.

None of the above is remotely original, I realise that - just wanted to get it off my chest.

LucheroTena · 06/12/2018 10:23

You’re right grinchly and this is why public referendums on important and complex issues are a terrible mistake.

We pay politicians to represent us and make sensible pragmatic decisions on our behalf. ‘The people’ cannot be relied upon to have the necessary information and critical judgement.

Let them sort out this mess of their own making. If they have to revoke article 50, apply for an extension to sort out a complex EFTA/EEA agreement, admit the whole thing was a terrible mistake and lose face and seats, so be it.

borntobequiet · 06/12/2018 10:28

The apprentices I teach are becoming more aware of the issues and are largely furious that this is happening. They have their heads screwed on and are aware of the implications for industry.
I tell them to register to vote and get involved. If they don't, others, who do not have their interests at heart, will make decisions that may impact them adversely.

Mistigri · 06/12/2018 10:34

None of the above is remotely original, I realise that - just wanted to get it off my chest

I mostly share your (very well expressed) opinion.

I think remain would win a new ref, but there's a very very significant risk that it doesn't, or that it scrapes a win, leaving nothing settled.

Only obvious solution is a govt of national unity and (probably) a Norway-like end point which respects the referendum but doesn't trash the economy.

Mistigri · 06/12/2018 10:40

Also, dunno if it's brexit related, but I've been travelling this week and all my BA flights have been noticeably quieter than usual. I reckon on my flight this morning - from London to a major European business and tourist destination - there were fewer than 20 people.

Coggle · 06/12/2018 10:40

I've had a look at how you can gain German citizenship or right to stay permanently. The stuff on the Web is written pretty positively. When I was in Germany recently, there were signs up showing where overseas people could get help. It just all felt so much more positive than in the UK. Doesn't cost an arm and a leg either. The emphasis is on what Germany gains from the skills of immigrants. I don't think I can manage it for myself (too old and not the right background), but I think that there are ways and means for young people to get out of the UK and start a life abroad if that's the way they want to go.
But if you get German citizenship after the UK has left the EU then you have to give up your British citizenship. So it's a drastic thing to do.

DGRossetti · 06/12/2018 10:42

I think TM was standing up pretty well to JH's style of questioning.

If it's a leaver usually he just strokes them with a kitten whilst nodding sagely to whatever is merde du jour.

If he'd ripped into her with 1/10000000th of the venom he gave Tony Blair last year, you'd need an electron microscope to put her back together again.

Cherrypi · 06/12/2018 10:43

Brexitcast on the one show last night was good. I think it did a good job of explaining the complications without insulting leavers.

Loletta · 06/12/2018 10:44

grinchly
I completely agree with everything you said.

Loletta · 06/12/2018 10:46

Has anyone seen this on the BBC. Am really worried and don't feel very optimistic today. Any insight on this from you clever lot?

Theresa May says she "is talking to colleagues" about their concerns over the Northern Ireland "backstop" ahead of a crucial vote on her EU deal.
She suggested MPs could be "given a role" in deciding whether to activate the backstop, which is designed to stop the return of a physical border.
But she told the BBC there could be no deal with the EU without a backstop.
It comes amid speculation Tuesday's Commons vote could be delayed to avoid a defeat for the prime minister.

Loletta · 06/12/2018 10:49

She said she recognised concerns about the Northern Ireland border backstop keeping the UK tied to the EU indefinitely.
She conceded that the UK would have "no unilateral right" to pull out of the backstop under her EU withdrawal agreement, but she said the UK would have a choice over whether or not to enter into it.
"The backstop is something nobody wants to go into in the first place, and we will be working to make sure that we don't go into it," she said."
If we get to the point where it might be needed, we have a choice as to what we do, so we don't even have to go into the backstop at that point.

Coggle · 06/12/2018 10:57

The now real possibility of a People's Vote again throws up the problem of Labour not providing any opposition to the Government. Labour should be shouting to the rooftops about the adverse effects on Labour voters and the country as a whole of a no deal or bad deal Brexit. If they were doing this, it would have a real effect on a People's Vote. Instead, they are saying nothing, so enabling millions to go on thinking that a no deal or a bad deal will be fine. We have a high risk of a majority of people voting for one of those options, which would put us in an even worse position than we are in currently.
Thanks, Corbyn and cronies. Who will soon be looking to a People's Vote to deliver the no-blame to Labour disastrous Brexit they crave.

Grinchly · 06/12/2018 10:58

Loletta I don't get that either. I thought the whole point of the backstop was that if needed, it comes into effect automatically.

The alternative is setting fire to the GFA and waving goodbye to any trade deals with anyone , ever - because we would have reneged on an international treaty and thus become a global pariah.

But I'm no expert. Maybe someone with better knowledge can help.

Coggle · 06/12/2018 11:00

If MPs believe promises by TM that they will have a say over the back-stop in the future, they are very very stupid. In any event, she won't be PM then. A completely wacko ERGer will probably be PM.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/12/2018 11:01

Sam Coates Times
@SamCoatesTimes
Some members of the cabinet have been asked to see the PM at 130

bellinisurge · 06/12/2018 11:04

Parliament will not let No Deal happen. Corbyn couldn't get his MPs to follow any plan he has. They hate him. There are enough of them and enough Tories in Parliament to do what they can to avoid No Deal.
How we get there is bloody tricky but even if TM Deal is voted down, I genuinely believe that No Deal is now off the table.
Doesn't mean I'm not continuing to prep for No Deal, just means I think it is less likely.

1tisILeClerc · 06/12/2018 11:09

All this reminds me of the old gag about perpetual motion where you spread jam on a cat's back.