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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Hazardswan · 05/12/2018 15:50

How have i missed Friday's courtcase?

Professor Howard to state the illegal Leave overspending "very likely^ won the referendum.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/vote-leave-referendum-overspending-high-court-brexit-legal-challenge-void-oxford-professor-a8668771.html

Their trying to get the research in as evidence.

Fuck me it's all happening this month isnt it?!

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 15:52

Meanwhile, seems that other peoples confidentiality matters not a jot ...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-46456695

The UK parliament's fake news inquiry has published a cache of seized Facebook documents.

(contd)

I'm curious as to why they needed to be "published" Hmm. Surely once the MPs got their sticky little fingers on them, they're evidence of some sort. Or is this a development I missed where all evidence in investigations is published as the investigation goes along ? Has anyone told the DWP ? Or HMRC ? They really should, I believe.

BurpAndRustle · 05/12/2018 16:30

Where’s they find that guy prettybird. Edinburgh was pretty fervently Remain. They’d have had to dig deep to find him.

prettybird · 05/12/2018 16:38

Ditto with their "People's Panel" Burp Hmm

They had one guy who was from the University of the West of Scotland who was a No Deal Brexiter, a Conservative Think Tank consultant who was pro the WA, a Swedish local businesswoman who hadn't been able to vote (as a EU citizen) and the only Remain voting representative was an androgynous "Women's and Equalities' Officer" from Queen Margaret University Hmm

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 16:44

To be fair to the BBC, they're obsessive about "balance" to the point of parody.

EtVoilaBrexit · 05/12/2018 17:01

British citizenship applications are actually usually pretty straightforward, much more so than the PR application.
Yes, I agree with that.

As to why getting the British citizenship when you already have Settled Status?
Bar the fact that with SS, you can only go away for 5 years, it also relies on trust of the HO/british government to actually keep their word. Seeing what has happened with Windrush, I don’t. (That and the fact you dint have a piece of paper to ‘prove’ you have your SS etc etc)

PCPlumsTruncheon · 05/12/2018 17:05

Crikey, it never rains but it pours as my DM says.
Totally agree with the BBC obsession with balance - it’s literally in the last few months that they have stopped giving the other side of the story re climate change eg wheeling out Nigel Lawson to tell us that it’s all a hoax. I was watching an item about domestic abuse a few weeks ago and was half expecting them to interview an abuser to tell everyone how misunderstood he was and that his wife was ‘asking for it’.
I was watching Boris last night completely floundering especially when he was asked what his big idea was. He just came across as totally mediocre - all froth and no substance. He just doesn’t do detail, hasn’t got the attention span.
The leavers really have gone very quiet on here. A very prolific leave supporter and patron of the Brexit Arms did say last week that nothing would make her change her mind and that she ‘couldn’t wait’ for no deal Brexit. I’m kind of grimly fascinated by what must go on in the head of someone like that.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 17:09

The leavers really have gone very quiet on here.

Not just here. Everywhere I lurk. With no bot-bulking going on, they're cutting a much less impressive swathe. I guess there's only so far "we won, get over it" can take you.

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 17:11

www.heraldscotland.com/news/17276140.david-mundell-nicola-sturgeon-could-go-on-post-brexit-trade-missions-with-theresa-may/

heraldscotland.com
David Mundell: Nicola Sturgeon could go on post-Brexit trade missions with Theresa May
By Michael Settle
3-4 minutes

The prospect of Theresa May going on post Brexit trade missions with Nicola Sturgeon has been raised after David Mundell insisted that businesses would welcome such a “combined approach” involving the two governments.

The Scottish Secretary’s suggestion came as the UK Government signalled a more inclusive approach to future trade deals that would involve stronger participation by the Scottish and Welsh administrations. An intergovernmental concordat, setting out the proposals, is due to be published later this week.

Appearing before the Commons Scottish Affairs Committee, Mr Mundell told MPs he would welcome a move to more joint trade delegations as this would produce better value for taxpayers.

It was pointed out how on some occasions UK and Scottish Government representatives had visited the same country but separately.

“I am very open and conducive to working together,” declared Mr Mundell. “There is continued scope for closer working. I’m sure that’s what business and industry bodies want.”

Later, when quizzed about the possibility of the Prime Minister and First Minister going on joint trade missions, the Scottish Secretary told The Herald: "I see no reason why that shouldn't happen. Businesses shouldn't have to choose whether they work with the UK Government or the Scottish Government. I see no impediment to that...Businesses would welcome that combined approach."

George Hollingbery, the International Trade Minister, giving evidence alongside Mr Mundell, stressed that at present the UK Government “engaged widely” with the devolved administrations but suggested there would be more liaison going forward post Brexit, referring to the intergovernmental concordat, which, he explained, would “incorporate” the Scottish Government into the way the UK Government approached new trade deals.

Asked if this meant Scottish Government ministers would be inside the negotiating room, Mr Hollingbery replied: “The offer we are making is a full and fair one and that will satisfy any reasonable observer that the devolved authorities are having a full part in the process of not only creating the outlines of our future trade agreements but also having a role further down the line.”

The SNP’s Pete Wishart, who chairs the committee, noted how people were waiting with “great excitement” about what was about to be announced.

However, the minister noted how one or two of the Scottish Government’s proposals to be involved in post Brexit free trade agreements were at the “far end of the bargaining scale” and that their suggestion of the need to get Edinburgh’s consent was “not on the table and will never be on the table”.

Mr Hollingbery later stressed: “It’s not right, however close we want to bring the devolved administrations, to take their advice and for them to represent the interests of their particular areas and responsibilities, to allow them to have an effective veto at any stage. This is a UK competence and will remain a UK competence.”

Motheroffourdragons · 05/12/2018 17:23

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ to protect the privacy of the user.

EtVoilaBrexit · 05/12/2018 17:35

Fuck me it's all happening this month isnt it?!

I’m hesitating betwee feeling relieved that finally things are moving and the relaitynif this vote is for all to see (the Impossibility, the expenses,how voters have been manipulated etc etc)

And at the same time, I’m feeling gutted that it has taken so long because we are so close to the deadline that we might still fall into No Deal by mistake despite all the new ‘revelations’ etc....

prettybird · 05/12/2018 17:36

DGR - that was Sky News reporting from Edinburgh. They're normally more balanced than that which was why I was shouting so loudly at the TV Hmm

I would've understood if it was the BBC Grin

DGRossetti · 05/12/2018 17:37

prettybird

Ah - sorry missed that. I wonder if OfCom might take a peek Hmm

Arborea · 05/12/2018 17:40

Does anyone know where I'd find that recent open letter from Tony Blair to the EU leaders? Google is not being my friend, nor is the Mumsnet search function.

I'm trying to put together another email to my MP...

PineappleSunrise · 05/12/2018 18:22

I’m kind of grimly fascinated by what must go on in the head of someone like that.

To be perfectly honest, I've observed a few possibilities:

  1. They have gone on for so long they can't back out now (we won, you lost, get over it)
  1. They have spent so much time feeding themselves the EUSSR line that they have convinced themselves EVERYTHING wrong with the UK is due to the EU, and therefore simply by leaving everything will be marvellous. (It's worth it for sovereignty!)
  1. They're not paying attention. (Just get on with it.)
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 05/12/2018 18:33

Unite leader warns Labour against backing second EU referendum

Len McCluskey tells MPs he fears a ‘people’s vote’ could be seen as a betrayal, sources say

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/05/unite-leader-warns-labour-against-backing-second-eu-referendum

icannotremember · 05/12/2018 18:36

I'm sure some people would see a people's vote as a betrayal, but seeing as the result of that vote would be Leave if Leave was thewillofthepeople, it's a hard argument to sustain.

I won't vote Labour if they don't come out for a new referendum.

Moussemoose · 05/12/2018 18:46

The thing is they are going to have to 'betray' someone.

If they support another referendum some leavers will feel betrayed, if they push for Brexit Remainers will feel betrayed.

There is no win option. All politicians will be negatively impacted by this. You need to look at the least worst option.

Peregrina · 05/12/2018 18:48

On PM this evening I heard Ian Duncan Smith say that aviation was sorted. Is it, does anyone know? Or was it 'this is what we want the EU to give us.'?

BestIsWest · 05/12/2018 18:52
Gin
1tisILeClerc · 05/12/2018 18:55

Bit difficult to imagine that aviation is actually sorted since the UK hasn't yet decided if it is in, out or sideways yet.

GirlsBlouse17 · 05/12/2018 19:03

I don't understand why having a second referendum would be a betrayal. The result of the referendum would be what the majority have chosen. People are entitled to change their minds especially when given new information. Leave could win again but if Remain was to win, it's simply that the majority have chosen Remain this time around.

WhiffofSnell · 05/12/2018 19:07

Alistair Campbell and that nice JRMogg are on Channel 4 news soon to discuss bananas.

Peregrina · 05/12/2018 19:08

So another porkie then from IDS. The questioner was a bit more robust this time though.

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