Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
Moussemoose · 10/12/2018 08:12

So it would seem the U.K. parliament is sovereign then.Wink

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 10/12/2018 08:15

ECJ go with the AG.

BBC referred to the case being brought thanks to a group of anti-brexit campaigners. Not remainers or pro-EU any more.

This seems extra relevent though:
@faisalislam
ECJ says revocation “under terms that are unchanged” - ie no schengen, eurozone, rebate (though Commission is trying to axe all rebates generally)

Lico · 10/12/2018 08:19

Mousse moose:
Totally agree with the USSR help win the war. In fact, France De Gaulle thought that the US betrayed Europe by encouraging the growth of Hitler

www.nytimes.com/1964/09/06/archives/why-the-french-mistrust-us-a-frenchman-reviews-the-state-of.html

frumpety · 10/12/2018 08:21

Did anyone hear the Port bloke from Portsmouth on the radio yesterday saying he was limited to what he could say due to NDA, he said this was true of many industries.

How the chuff have we got to the point where our government has nobbled free speech, not in the interest of national security, but simply to save the conservative party ?

And why aren't Leavers asking themselves why the Government has felt it necessary to do this ?

BiglyBadgers · 10/12/2018 08:24

Just on the nursing pay front, to hold foreign nurses responsible for low pay is to completely ignored the culture of nursing and nurses own complicity in keeping their wages down. Nurses recently had an opportunity to negotiate and fight for a decent wage increase, instead they accepted a frankly terrible deal from the government that will leave some nurses worse off.

As long as nurses refuse to do anything of consequence to demand higher pay, as long as they are prepared to work hours of overtime and do 14 hour shifts without a break, and cover the failures of the government with their own time, money and health than there will be no reasonable pay for nurses because why the hell should they pay. Nurses will continue to cover the gaps and doff their caps and talk about how honoured they are to care and how you shouldn't be a nurse if you want to get paid.

It is not eu nurses that allow the low pay for nurses it is nurses who consistently fail to value their work and time and just accept whatever crumbs they are given.

BiglyBadgers · 10/12/2018 08:26

Sorry, for the detail there. Just something I feel a bit strongly about. Blush

BiglyBadgers · 10/12/2018 08:27

*derail ....not detail...

BigChocFrenzy · 10/12/2018 08:48

ECJ decision:

EU Court of Justicee@EUCourtPress*

#ECJ: UK is free to unilaterally revoke the notification of its intention to withdraw from the EU – Case C-621/18 Wightman #Brexitt*
....
Article 50 can be revoked unilaterally and UK could cancel Brexit at any time up to 29 March 2019

This is the final word - there are no appeals.

1tisILeClerc · 10/12/2018 08:53

bellinisurge.
Sorry this is a bit late as my night time doesn't correspond to yours but my comment about dictators is of course a 'unicorn' version and I accept that all will abuse the power. I had no intention of upsetting you.

bellinisurge · 10/12/2018 08:53

Thank you @1tisILeClerc .

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2018 08:55

Most people are as likely to emigrate overseas as go to the moon. This is what the people on these threads don’t understand. Most people are stuck or choose to remain in the U.K. for various reasons.

I think this is true. However for anyone professional it's not necessarily true.

Why do please emigrate to the UK? For work.

If we lose certain entire industries, there is going to be a certain cross section of the country who are trained for certain things and are half way through their careers who perhaps will be in a position where they have little choice but to go abroad. The same goes for young people.

People go where there is work.

That's what was happening before we joined the EU.

OP posts:
lonelyplanetmum · 10/12/2018 08:56

Regarding the appeal- it's one of the many misapprehensions of the legal system.

Usually it's the UK court who refers the matter to the ECJ for guidance. Then the issue returns to the UK court to decide. Appeals are normal
Internal - no ECJ appeal.

ErinDittme · 10/12/2018 08:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

prettybird · 10/12/2018 08:59

Statement from Jo Maugham Smile

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
Peregrina · 10/12/2018 09:10

Bet the ECJ ruling has annoyed Theresa May - it knocks out her argument that it's her deal or nothing, although significant numbers would go for nothing.

RedToothBrush · 10/12/2018 09:17

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3447437-Westminstenders-A-vote-too-far?watched=1

Off out for the day...

OP posts:
whymewhynow · 10/12/2018 09:18

I don't think "annoyed" is the right word, Peregrina. I suspect May knew what the ruling would be all along, as she undoubtedly would have had top legal advice on the matter, and that is why she tried to frustrate the process at every turn. Perhaps Jolyon Maugham could now start pressing for an investigation into how much money she squandered trying to close off the UK's options.

1tisILeClerc · 10/12/2018 09:20

It is obviously too late now but theoretically when the coalmines closed in the UK the workers COULD have moved to Poland. This is only an example of significant migration that could happen now with FoM.
Of course at the time there was no FoM (?) and Poland wasn't an EU member.
While not specifically nursing related ALL company bosses try to pay the minimum to workers worldwide and it is a variety of other forces that dictate the level that gets paid. I am presuming nurses are reluctant to strike as they are fully aware that patients will die or at least have their problems worsened. You don't see solicitors striking and if they did, how would you tell?

Hazardswan · 10/12/2018 09:21

WineWine

Woop, woop, Whoooo!

Who knew the word revoke would be music to my ears!

1tisILeClerc · 10/12/2018 09:21

Thanks RTB

WhatdoImean · 10/12/2018 09:28

The REALLY interesting element to the ECJ Judgement? The fact that revocation can occur during the two year initial period OR during any extension to that.... As such, we can extend, have a GE (or new vote) and then, depending on "the will of the people", we could revoke.

If there is an extension, we do not have to revoke by 29th March.... AND we get to keep all the current opt-outs etc.

But.... I sadly think "there is nothing so rare as so-called 'common' sense"

Sad
frumpety · 10/12/2018 09:34

Sadly have to agree with you Bigly on the issues surrounding nurses pay Sad

Peregrina · 10/12/2018 09:39

But the ECJ ruling is if we wish. Theresa May doesn't wish - she has set her stall out on 'Brexit means Brexit'. Well, OK she's ditched the ' and I intend to make a success of it.' bit.

1tisILeClerc · 10/12/2018 09:43

I bet the 'chief scribe' at the EU is busy amending A50!