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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

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RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:05

Jacob Rees-Mogg @JacobReesMogg
Reasons why the Withdrawal Agreement is bad 1/6: This deal hands over £39bn of UK taxpayers money with no guarantee of any long term agreement in return. In two years time we could be in the same place less £39bn. Our money should be conditional on a trade deal. #CleanBrexit

Reasons why the Withdrawal Agreement is bad 2/6: This deal, Article 174, keeps the supremacy of the European Court over our own law. #CleanBrexit

Reasons why the Withdrawal Agreement is bad 3/6: We could remain tied to the EU for an extendable 'transition' period, paying and accepting new laws over which we will have no say. #CleanBrexit

Reasons why the Withdrawal Agreement is bad 5/6: This deal leaves us with regulatory border checks on British goods at Calais, failing to solve the one issue it uses to justify the payment of money and other concessions. #CleanBrexit

Reasons why the Withdrawal Agreement is bad 4/6: Unrestricted immigration of EU nationals will still be continuing at least 4 years after the referendum. #CleanBrexit

Reasons why the Withdrawal Agreement is bad 5/6: This deal leaves us with regulatory border checks on British goods at Calais, failing to solve the one issue it uses to justify the payment of money and other concessions. #CleanBrexit

Reasons why the Withdrawal Agreement is bad 6/6: This deal will deny the UK an independent trade policy while potentially keeping us out of existing EU trade policy. We would be cut off from the world with our trade and economy regulated from Brussels. #CleanBrexit

Where to start with this?

What do you think the effect of No Deal would be Jacob?

This man clearly has been infected by BSE.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:05

JRM just reiterating all the red lines again

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:07

The Tory membership are mostly batshit Brexit Ultras, with the actists being even worse.
Yes, telling them to tout May's WA wouldn't have gone down well 😂

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:08

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
1. No 10 says vote still taking place on Tuesday - but cabinet not so sure - senior minister says they have been saying 'til blue in the face', that 'only political common sense is to delay' - 'we need to find a solution and we can't find one by Tuesday'

2. It's a VERY unappetising choice for No 10 to make over next few days - press ahead and risk a wipeout which could unleash what someone described as 'black ice, where you can't tell where you'll end up skidding', which might even end up in end of the govt and end of May

3. Or delay - but delay to do what next? People been staring at same set of issues for 2 years - and some in No 10 believe they have to test the issue - until you rip the plaster off you can't know how grim the mess is underneath

4. EU sources were incredulous that PM could go back less than a fortnight after a deal agreed and say she couldn't make it work - this is a really important few days

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RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:09

A view from New York

Richard N. Haass @RichardHaass
In an instant Europe has gone from being the most stable region in the world to anything but. Paris is burning, the Merkel era is ending, Italy is playing a dangerous game of chicken with the EU, Russia is carving up Ukraine, and the UK is consumed by Brexit. History is resuming.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:09

Matthew O'Toole@MatthewOToole2

This has become Slade's Merry Christmas Everybody for UK political Twitter
😂😂
< one of Cameron's 2015 GE tweets >

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
1tisILeClerc · 07/12/2018 13:11

Why are these politicians being allowed to get away with CONTINUALLY telling lies?

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:13

Mark Wallace @wallaceme
32 senior activists, including chairmen of key Tory marginals + target seats have written to the Chairman of the National Convention to argue “never should Party funds or Party-funded CCHQ staff be used to lobby against our duly elected MPs”.

^

Mark Wallace Retweeted Mark Wallace

National Conservative Convention (elected association, area + regional officers) meets tomorrow. There'll also be a fringe event (something literally unheard of at the NCC) on the topic of the deal. The speakers are @BorisJohnson @JacobReesMogg @DavidDavisMP and @patel4witham.^

These Convention meetings are normally very dry - the prospect of four big hitters turning up to rally the Party's senior activists against the Prime Minister's EU deal is a rather dramatic departure from the norm. I'd expect a good turnout.

news.sky.com/story/theresa-may-send-ministers-across-the-country-to-drum-up-brexit-deal-support-11573641
PM warned 'tinkering' with Brexit deal 'won't cut it' as she is told to delay Commons vote

Theresa May dispatches her ministers around the country but she's told efforts to win over critics of her Brexit deal will fail.

Steve Baker MP @SteveBakerHW
And without the courtesy of telling MPs they are visiting, as is conventional.

Counterproductive.

Again.

Like cutting out @DExEUgov to give a silly briefing from the Civil Contingencies Secretariat

Mark Wallace @wallaceme
Really? Another clumsy way to peeve MPs at a time when they are meant to be wooing them.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:13

red 13-14 Dec, Thur-Fri:
European Council, attended by all EU heads of govt

May will be expected to present a summary of the WA status to her fellow leaders and inform them what she is going to do next.

She'd be welcomed like a bucket of cold sick if she arrives after having chickened out of even trying to pass the WA.
She wore out her welcome in these Council meetings a long time ago

DGRossetti · 07/12/2018 13:14

A view from New York

Isn't there a saying about looking to the tree in your eye before you point out the grit in your neighbours ?

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:16

Faisal Islam @faisalislam
David Lidington, visiting a business in Nigel Dodds constituency confirms to @skydavidblevins that the meaningful vote will go ahead on Tuesday

Nigel Dodds @NigelDoddsDUP
Rather than a roadshow selling the fundamentally flawed Withdrawal Agreement, I would prefer the Government would listen to MPs on all sides of the House & finally acknowledge the backstop is dangerous for Northern Ireland and for the entire United Kingdom.

The GFA and the EHCR are dangerous for NI and the entire United Kingdom says the less well known Nigel.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:16

JPCampbellBizz@JP*_Biz

You don’t really need leaked UK govt papers to learn the a no deal Brexit could hit Irish GDP by 7%.
You can just read the report commissioned by....the Irish govt.
Published in February.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:18

May has planned to be out of the country THE DAY AFTER her big vote which has long been rumoured to be a defeat and that there may be that leadership challenge?

Really?

What was she thinking with the scheduling?!

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:20

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

Here is the key bit of @MattHancock's letter to pharmaceutical companies and hospitals today.
Prepare for 6 MONTHS of border chaos under No Deal...

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:23

Well, the European Council Date was out of her power to change
and I think she couldn't bring the WA vote any earlier.

She probably didn't want to delay it either - no tood date to be hammered, really

Besides, she's still in "submarine" mode for problems, as it always worked for her at the Home Office to be absent then.
What could go wrong ? 🤔

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:25

Brady said he would always give 48 hrs notice to No. 10, before going public if the ERG ever learn to count and get enough letters

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:26

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46393399?ns_campaign=bbc_politics&ns_linkname=news_central&ns_source=twitter&ns_mchannel=social
BBC flow charts on what happens next.

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RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:29

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/stop-brexit-referendum-back-on-the-table-ahead-of-crunch-commons-vote-by-mps_uk_5c0a5d87e4b04046345b18fa
'Stop Brexit' Referendum Back On The Table Ahead Of Crunch Commons Vote
There is a late, late move to give MPs an extra option in Tuesday's showdown

Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
^Lib Dems under pressure from #PeoplesVote campaign
and @BestForBritain to pull 2nd ref amendment ahead of Tuesday's vote ^

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HesterThrale · 07/12/2018 13:32

I wonder why Revoke is not an option on that BBC flowchart? I feel that it’s as likely as some of the other outcomes...

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 13:33

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/07/police-to-stop-passing-on-immigration-status-of-victims
Police to stop passing on immigration status of crime victims

New measures include ban on officers checking computer solely to see if someone has leave to remain in UK

Buried near the bottom of the article we find out why:

It is believed that Liberty, the civil liberties group, was about to start action challenging police on their stance over sharing information with immigration enforcement.

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GD12 · 07/12/2018 14:01

Anyone read the replies on Twitter to the BBCs report that there would be 6months disruption at Dover in the event of a no deal? All I see are "scaremongering" and "how can you tell". It's depressing people are so stupid and don't have the first idea of why this would happen. I despair.

missclimpson · 07/12/2018 14:05

Of course they are major changes BigChoc, but I don't think they came about because of the student protests of 1968, nor were they brought about solely by that particular group of people. Hanging (for example) was abolished in 1965.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 14:10

Allie Hodgkins-Brown @AllieHBNews
BREAKING: BBC confirms Fiona Bruce as new Question Time presenter

Why? Why would you take this job?

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WhiffofSnell · 07/12/2018 14:11

£££

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 14:14

Honestly though, surely shes got enough of that and in the long term, how is this going to help her future career earning prospects?

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