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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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EtVoilaBrexit · 07/12/2018 11:57

Red if I could go anywhere, I would go to live in Canada/Quebec.
Plenty of reasons for that but the fact they are actually WANTING immigrants there and I speak both English and French (and could practice my job) are all big factors.

It seems that I will settled to ‘go back’ to France (even if I’ve spent more time now living in the U.K. that I’ve spent in France). Regardless of the GJ and other issues, it’s still a much nicer place to live than the U.K.

DGRossetti · 07/12/2018 12:02

Ie always thought that people couldn’t actually hold grudges for so long and would have adapted to the new world by now.

Come to the West Midlands and hear folk go on about the divvying up of the boroughs in the 70s .....

Hesta54 · 07/12/2018 12:03

BigChocFrenzy Yet again taking it out of context, of course it’s bad, but at the time when the stories started to break it was reported that millions would die from eating infected meat, ( didn’t happen) and 1-3 people were going to die in the U.K. of Aids ( didn’t/doesn’t happen) blowing things out of proportion, because people find a way through problems, sometimes reports are elaborate and sensational

1tisILeClerc · 07/12/2018 12:09

{Part of it is indeed settling old scores.}
And this small sentence could be one of the major undoings of the UK.
With it's colonial past any opportunity to say 'no' is likely to be exploited.
While there is underlying resentment between Britain and France going back hundreds of years, there are places where the memories and 'reasons' are far stronger.

Jason118 · 07/12/2018 12:10

Which is exactly why so many people are crying out for remain - it removes the problems caused by Brexit Smile

SusanWalker · 07/12/2018 12:11

Just imagining where we would be if the country had dismissed the 80s aids adverts and subsequent sex ed as project fear....

Ditto vets warnings on BSE.....

Hesta54 · 07/12/2018 12:11

BigChocFrenzy Feel free to ignore, I let you know if it’s all hype when we’ve left, then we will all know the truth, none of the doom that was sprouted pre referendum has come to pass, ( yes I know we haven’t left yet )

icannotremember · 07/12/2018 12:12

DGRossetti We seem to be very good at blowing things out of proportion in this country, we were all going to contract BSE and AIDS I remember being used to scare

See, I remember being informed of the issues and given advice and guidance on how to minimise risks. Thank goodness most people didn't respond by sticking their fingers in their ears and insisting that it was some sort of overblown Project Fear.

Hesta54 · 07/12/2018 12:12

SusanWalker Most of the infected meat was already in the food chain and had been for many years

Jason118 · 07/12/2018 12:13

Errr, yes it has

lonelyplanetmum · 07/12/2018 12:18

Regarding the Jacob Rees-Mogg and Alastair Campbell video about the man whose marriage to his German wife is over after he voted to leave.

Apart from the substantive content, we seem to have now moved to a position where it is not only acceptable but accepted and normal for a member of the governing party to criticise his own party's government and the Prime Minister very openly and in very severe terms.

This may be a good thing rather than projecting a false veneer of solidarity? But I can't remember dissent ever being this open and this bad before? Have we have previous governments where criticism of the cabinet/ prime minister was so open and overt by a group of MPs of the same party?

SusanWalker · 07/12/2018 12:25

Most of the infected meat was already in the food chain and had been for many years

Oh well in that case....

I assume we should also not bother removing asbestos as it's been there all along?

Or we should have continued prescribing thalidomide as so many people had taken it already?

Or carried on using CFC s as the hole in the ozone layer was already there?

1tisILeClerc · 07/12/2018 12:29

{none of the doom that was sprouted pre referendum has come to pass}
Apart from around 3% drop in value of the Pound and the racking up of HUGE bills to pay for storage, extra customs facilities, turning parts of motorways into lorry parks and loss of staff from hospitals etc.
Of course all this was worked out prior to the vote but somehow failed to make it onto the ballot paper as a likely outcome.

jasjas1973 · 07/12/2018 12:32

Hesta - folk warn of disaster and most people in the past, would take note and alter behavior or take mitigating decisions.

So, many scientists look at the risks of avian flu pandemics and Governments change how birds are kept and work on vaccines, that doesn't take away the very real risks just because we've not had a pandemic.

I totally agree the warnings of eco doom if we vote Leave were completely over blown (in 2016) but we don't need a depression lasting 10 years and ending in a European war for brexit to seriously damage our economy and public service spending and that means job losses, repossessions, longer waiting lists and poorer schools and for what? some utopia in 10 or 15 years time?
who gets damaged in the meantime? you and i or Farage and Johnson?

TheElementsSong · 07/12/2018 12:34

I don't know why we bothered eradicating smallpox, when it had already been around for thousands of years Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 12:38

Misti I've been working in Germany on and off since the late 80s.
Some time after the BSE outbreak, I was unable to give blood there anymore - and I have an unusual blood type that's normally in great demand.

I*m now over 60, so I don't know if policy has changed

usuallydormant · 07/12/2018 12:40

Regardless of the GJ and other issues, it’s still a much nicer place to live than the U.K.

Yes, despite my melodrama Smile I love it in France, I would be gutted to leave, as would my kids who are having a fantastic childhood and education here. Ît is home, even if I will alway be an immigrant - and I feel a lot more at home here than I ever did as an Irish woman in London. And Ireland has changed so much since I left, I think I'd find it hard to go back.

There are so many amazing things about living this country and I certainly felt a lot of optimism when Macron was elected : most of the strikes outside the GJ have been halfhearted compared to in the past. I think they said there were c100,000 people on protests last week throughout the whole of France. It's not that much really and most were peaceful. Hopefully the bad weather will drive them indoors this weekend Wink.

I read one of two of the lists of demands and interestingly, there was nothing I saw about Frexit, or leaving the Euro or stopping EU directives. As neighbours have pointed out, the good thing about Brexit is that it has stopped most French looking for it as they can see what a big mess it is.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 07/12/2018 12:42

we seem to have now moved to a position where it is not only acceptable but accepted and normal for a member of the governing party to criticise his own party's government and the Prime Minister very openly and in very severe terms.
During the GE our MP was openly trashing TM on the doorsteps. A DF of mine quit the local Tories years previously as she felt he was against everything that they should stand for, though until then he never publicly pulled that. I found it strange as we're a very blue constituency.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 12:46

missClimpson The culture war - at least for my extended NE family - is about a lot more than feminism and teaching in schools

OK, they miss corporal punishment in schools, but also:

Kids with SEN no longer being locked away
Capital punishment, even birching
Resent banning racial insults as infringing freedom of speech
And disablist insults too
Horror that the Mayor of London is Muslim - much denigration of him after every incident in London
Too many furiin around of all sorts
Single mothers (non-widows) not being stigmatised any more
Gay people too
Benefits too "generous"
.......

1tisILeClerc · 07/12/2018 12:51

I don't think any of the French 'opposition' parties are even thinking about leaving the EU. Although I haven't really followed the French news I feel that Mr Macron is working in the right direction, as some things do need change but he may not have the subtlety of an 'old hand' and is pushing against a pretty conservative culture just a bit too hard. (small c).
From what I have seen so far in rural France the GJ have been a pretty equal mix of men and women, young and old.

Emilyontmoor · 07/12/2018 12:53

As I remember during the AIDS crisis a lot of doom was indeed stirred up, by those seeking to spread prejudice. In fact it became apparent very quickly to epidemiologists that this was a disease that was actually hard to transmit and could easily be protected against. It didn’t stop ignorant people continuing to stoke their uninformed prejudices and as a result causing even more and unnecessary suffering. Exactly the same happened with SARS with the Press and public reaction in the West taking a long time to catch up with the reality that epidemiologists had realised in the first few days this was another hard one to catch. I can see a lot of parallels to the —ignorant— emotional responses to Brexit versus the informed ones. I am not incidentally saying all those who voted leave are ignorant but we are now in a crazy situation where those who know that no deal is going to be a disaster economically and politically and are doing their best to avoid it are not believed and even intelligent people are wanting to believe Davis Jacob Slleese Mogg and Fromage in spite of the evidence they are liars......

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 12:54

ConservativeHome @ConHome
Exclusive. Tory Association Chairmen protest against the “misuse of Party funds” on “propaganda campaign” backing the deal

www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/12/exclusive-tory-association-chairmen-protest-against-the-misuse-of-party-funds-on-propaganda-campaign-backing-mays-deal.html
Exclusive. Tory Association Chairmen protest against the “misuse of Party funds” on “propaganda campaign” backing the deal

On Tuesday we reported that Conservative activists across the country are flatly refusing to deliver the CCHQ-supplied stock of leaflets and postcards aimed at encouraging voters to lobby Tory MPs in favour of the Prime Minister’s EU deal.

It appears ConservativeHome is far from alone in being concerned at the harm done by attempts to deploy the Party’s resources on an issue where the majority of members are at odds with the leadership. This morning I can exclusively publish the below letter, signed by 32 senior Conservative activists, which urges an “immediate” end to what it terms “this misuse of Party funds” in support of “what amounts to a propaganda campaign to get MPs to back the proposed deal.”

The letter is addressed to Andrew Sharpe, the Chairman of the National Conservative Convention – the representative body of the voluntary Conservative Party, which will hold its next meeting tomorrow.

The grassroots played a crucial role a couple of weeks ago, in keeping May as leader.

OP posts:
missclimpson · 07/12/2018 12:57

Wow BigChoc that is quite a list. So really they were objrcting to the attitudes and values which might possibly have been held by the '68 protesters, rather than the actual changes brought about (which were pretty limited really). That must have been very hard to live with.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 12:57

Our annual GDP increase was around the top of the G7, but now the others have overtaken us.

India has now officially overtaken the Uk to be the world's #6 economy

The govt is doing emergency planning to try to ensure supplies of water, foods & medicines - maybe Brexiters think the govt shouldn't bother about it ?
Funnily enough, Frau Merkel's problems don't include worry about us getting food & meds here

True, there is a definite possibility we might not Brexit after all, in which case all that prepping would indeed no be needed

The pound crashed the day after the EU Ref and is only likely to get near its pre-ref value if we Remain after all

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 13:05

MisClimpson Those are all major changes:

. murderers are not being hanged - including all those like the Birmingham 6 who turned out to be innoccent after all
. kids no longer being caned, slippered or smacked at school
. gay people are getting married instead of being jailed
. single mothers, the disabled, those with SEN, BAME people all have massively more rights than in the 1960s and earlier