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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

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30
bellinisurge · 07/12/2018 10:47

@DGRossetti that was just meanGrin

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 10:47

What is delusional is that a better deal than the WA is available while keeping the UK's red lines.
Barnier and the Commission have repeatedly said the WA is the only deal unless the UK changes policy to Norway++

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 07/12/2018 10:48

I'd love to see how much of the Venn diagram is actually not just the middle part for people who spout project fear and people who think the Y2K bug was a big hoohaa about nothing.

Hesta54 · 07/12/2018 10:50

DGRossetti Yes they are real, just like Brexit the Millennium bug was way over sold, there may have been issues, but no were near as was made out, scaremongering, I not saying things weren’t done to stop the problem occurring, but I no a lot of people that made a lot of money on the back of the MB

usuallydormant · 07/12/2018 10:51

I agree that the GJs are France's Brexit/Trump voters and they are being inflamed by hidden forces. Probably similar ones - the amount of english language #giletjaunes on twitter from the start was interesting. And it's the same old same old: they want quick fixes to complex problems and a total distrust and hatred of elites and experts. And I think Macron is seen by many as a slimy know it all expert. I think he should come out of hiding and speak, but in fairness I don't think there is anything he will say that will stop them.

The problems are global - angry middle aged men who are no longer respected, polarisation of income, MNCs not paying their fair share of taxes and working people not being paid a fair wage. This is not just a French problem - we see the same issues everywhere. Macron's head on a spike is not going to solve anything.

There's not too many around me (near CH border), I would say 1 in 10 cars have a vest in front and there are a few roadblocks centred mainly on autoroute pay areas. This area has one of the lowest rates of unemployment in France, relatively high levels of income. But I don't want to be caught in a roadblock with my accent; 50% in my village voted Front National. Which is making myself and my husband think about our future here. Because if Europe is going right, the GJ online onslaught is a trial run for the European Elections and it's going to all go Brexity in France in terms of immigration, maybe I do need to go back to the "home" I left 20 years ago.

We are watching our family and friends in the UK being disrespected but stuck, our family in NI worried about future security issues and us wondering if we are going to be welcome in this country in future and what the next presidential election will bring. It's just all a bit grim looking.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 10:51

MissClimpson Most young people in 1968 did NOT participate, that's the point - some didn't care either way and some opposed the progressive movement.

e.g. My extended family in the NE, who were very conservative have been bitterly angry ever since about having "lost" then.

They are fanatical Brexiters now, who keep saying "just Leave", "Remoaner sabotage" etc

Hesta54 · 07/12/2018 10:55

DGRossetti We seem to be very good at blowing things out of proportion in this country, we were all going to contract BSE and AIDS I remember being used to scare

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 10:58

Hesta Are you claiming the disaster of No Deal is all hype then ?

Just so I know to ignore you in future

Jason118 · 07/12/2018 10:59

Hesta,
For pity's sake stop making comparisons to things where action was taken to prevent shit from happening. The issue here is that no real preparation has been done for two years!!

missclimpson · 07/12/2018 11:02

No I know that BigChoc. I was at university and caught up in the protests, but I do understand that I was part of a minority group. I am just surprised that anyone would still be resentful about it fifty years later.
My family were Tories and I am sure they thought protests against the war in Vietnam were daft, but I don't remember any lingering resentment. Nor do I hear it from my friends and acquaintances here in France. I teach a U3A group here so I will ask them!

OhYouBadBadKitten · 07/12/2018 11:10

I think maybe doubters should look at how fragile our systems are.
One certificate issue (so we are told) caused problems with mobile networks around the world yesterday, and still today.

That simple issue caused problems with train travellers not being able to get tickets, bus timetables to not display, people not able to do their jobs and losing work because they rely on that network. I got caught up in that and for such a tiny failure in the system, it sure caused havoc.

We are so reliant on systems working now and just one thing toppling over has a huge impact. I'm really concerned about the port issues and I believe I have every right to be.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 11:11

BSE, AIDS were just scares ?

**

BSE killed 149 people in the UK.
It was stopped finally by slaughtering & burning millions of Uk cattle.
I remember the smoke from those funeral pyres across the land
It destroyed the reputation of British beef - even the DUP say NI beef is Irish beef

Aids killed 35 million worldwide and still kills about 1 million annually.
Poorer countries suffered hugely, especially those where the rulers denied the problem instead of tackling it

The UK acted, so didn't suffer anything like those other countries
So, "only" 100,000 are infected in the UK
and "only" about 450 die annually from AIDS

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 11:21

twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1070699397007228929

Jacob Rees Mogg and Alastair Campbell meet a man whose marriage to his German wife has completely broken down because he voted leave.

Thanks to those of you in France about your views on the GJ stuff. I would be grateful for your on going reflections on whats going on, because its highly relevant to whats going on here too.

As an aside, has anyone got any thoughts about if you could leave anywhere and get an additional passport where would you go?

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 11:22

MissClimpson You need to ask those of the right age group who are actually protesting, or supporting protests.

Most of my social circle are Remainers and look back on 1968 with nostalgia, even if they didn't actually participate.

However, all one side of the family are Brexiters, all were angry at the 68 protestors and have grumbled on & off since at the changes that the movement brought in.

Now they feel it's their chance to correct at least part of what they regarded at the time as a victory by their enemies, who were the left & "Long-haired students",
an international movement that they also associate with the UK joining the then Common Market.

Part of it is indeed settling old scores.
It certainly isn't any deep thinking on their part, just seems old culture wars reopening,
instinctively lining up against something their old enemies support and that their old chums oppose.

DGRossetti · 07/12/2018 11:23

One certificate issue (so we are told) caused problems with mobile networks around the world yesterday, and still today.

That's a subtle indication that the new talent coming in, isn't quite the same as the old talent going out, coupled with the fact that there's a layer between tech and tit so to speak. The money men who fund hire'n'fire really haven't a clue what entire sections of their tech team do.

For those that recall the HSBC outage a few years back - in the tech discussions around it, every poster was adamant that this kind of thing would simply keep happening. After all, you can't push a few hundred years combined experience out of the door in favour of a few decades, and expect highly complex systems to just carry on.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 11:28

www.ft.com/content/080d418a-f887-11e8-8b7c-6fa24bd5409c
Leave campaigners prepare quietly for second Brexit referendum
Lynton Crosby aide working behind the scenes with Eurosceptics on strategy for new vote

Sebastian Payne @SebastianEPayne
Exclusive: Prominent Brexit campaigners are quietly preparing for second referendum. A key aide of Sir Lynton Crosby has been meeting with MPs for informal conversations about a future no-deal campaign.

Likely featuring Boris Johnson.

David Canzini “has been around Westminster a lot over the last few weeks speaking to key leave MPs...it’s clear that he’s looking at how CTF can run a potential second referendum.”

His work on “Chuck Chequers” is the most organised pro-Brexit operation.

Key people from the last pro-Leave camp are under investigation by the Electoral Commission for violations of campaign law.

Key people involved with Vote Leave and Leave.EU believe they‘d be excluded from a second referendum campaign.

Remainers are more confident about 2nd ref. But some Brexiters believe it’s eminently winnable

“Another referendum would lead to a more decisive victory for Leave than the first vote, as it would be about democracy [rather] than Brexit” - @JacobReesMogg

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RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 11:29

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
I understand the Government has significantly revised up its worst case scenario on No Deal disruption at UK borders - to 6 months of chaos, rather than 6 weeks. Letters going out to ‘stakeholders’ today.

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BigChocFrenzy · 07/12/2018 11:29

red For those who don't closely follow such news, don't realise that this and previous govts have removed many rights to citizenship.

Most don't realise that a govt can actively commit harmful acts unless constantly watched closely & then stopped.

That's how the WIndrush generation could live in blissful ignorance that they had been shafted.

Few people realise that now marriage to a Brit and having DC with them not only doesn't entitle a person to UK citizenship, but may not even entitle them to remain.

TheElementsSong · 07/12/2018 11:31

The one thing I'm going to definitely remember from this morning's posts is that Brexit devotees apparently believe that BSE and AIDS were insignificant nonentities Grin

missclimpson · 07/12/2018 11:32

BigChoc not doubting you for a moment but I am truly astonished by that about the culture wars. So the changes would be the Women's Movement, progressive teaching in schools etc? Most of our harder left friends voted against the Common Market because the goal was a Europe united in socialism.
It didn't feel as if we achieved much at the time, though the Women's Movement certainly grew out of our anger with some of the more chauvinist leaders of the protests.
I have a huge age range (30 to 80) in the group I teach and there are some GJ supporters so I will try to find out about attitudes to 68.

DGRossetti · 07/12/2018 11:33

Some more detail on that outage:

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/12/07/o2_crash_lessons_comment/

Now combine that outage with - say - needing to stack 10,000 lorries at a time. Chaos wouldn't come close to describing it.

(As an aside, surprised the story about banks moving to a compulsory 2FA for larger purchases wasn't picked up more widely ...)

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 11:42

For those that recall the HSBC outage a few years back - in the tech discussions around it, every poster was adamant that this kind of thing would simply keep happening. After all, you can't push a few hundred years combined experience out of the door in favour of a few decades, and expect highly complex systems to just carry on.

You should be very frightened about how banks run their IT departments and who they recruit.

Is your data (and money) secure?

Hell no.

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Mistigri · 07/12/2018 11:42

The one thing I'm going to definitely remember from this morning's posts is that Brexit devotees apparently believe that BSE and AIDS were insignificant nonentities

I still can't give blood in France because I lived in the UK during the BSE outbreak.

DD in Paris was supposed to be sitting an exam tomorrow but her lycée is closing for the day.

RedToothBrush · 07/12/2018 11:46

Excuse me the NI border and GFA was key reason I voted remain .

2beesornot2beesthatisthehoney, you misinterpret me. That was my own reasoning and my own anger too.

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EtVoilaBrexit · 07/12/2018 11:54

Part of it is indeed settling old scores.
I’ve heard that sort of reasoning before in the U.K., About other subjects.
Ie always thought that people couldn’t actually hold grudges for so long and would have adapted to the new world by now.
It seems i am wrong...

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