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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

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DGRossetti · 06/12/2018 18:38

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/supreme-court-set-to-rule-on-scottish-brexit-bill-1-4840282

scotsman.com
Supreme Court set to rule on Scottish Brexit Bill
Russell Jackson
5-6 minutes

The UK’s highest court is to rule next week on a challenge brought over Brexit legislation passed by the Scottish devolved administration.

Supreme Court justices will announce their decision on Thursday on the “competence” of the Scottish Bill following a hearing in London in the summer.
The Supreme Court justices will announce their decision on Thursday on the "competence" of the Scottish Bill following a hearing in London this summer. Picture: PA Wire
The Supreme Court justices will announce their decision on Thursday on the "competence" of the Scottish Bill following a hearing in London this summer. Picture: PA Wire

The court has been asked to rule on whether the EU exit bill passed by the Scottish Parliament in March is constitutional and “properly within devolved legislative powers”.

At a hearing in July, a panel of seven justices, including the court’s president Lady Hale and deputy president Lord Reed, were urged to find that the legislation “cannot stand”.

The issue was referred to the court to seek legal certainty “in the public interest” by the Attorney General and the Advocate General for Scotland, the Government’s senior law officers.

Advocate General for Scotland Lord Keen told the justices that their case was that “the Scottish Bill as a whole cannot stand”.

He submitted that the Bill “impermissibly modifies” the UK Act on withdrawal from the EU.

The UK Bill was given Royal Assent on June 26 and became the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.

The law officers said in their written case before the Supreme Court that the Scottish Bill was passed “without knowledge” of the outcome of negotiations between the UK Government and the EU institutions and “pre-empts them”.

READ MORE: Nicola Sturgeon urged to rule out tax rises in budget

They stated: “The effect of what the Scottish Bill does is to make provision for the future relationship with the EU and EU law when that relationship is under negotiation.”

They submitted that this “could serve to undermine the credibility of the UK’s negotiation and implementation strategy in the eyes of the EU”.

As well as hearing the case put forward by the law officers, the justices received submissions in response from Lord Advocate James Wolffe QC.

He argued that the justices should rule “in the negative” on the question posed by the law officers relating to whether the Bill “as a whole” is outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament.

He pointed out that although the reference to the court “arises in a politically contentious context, the issues which arise for the court’s determination are strictly issues of law”.

Mr Wolffe said: “The purpose and effect of the Scottish Bill is to promote legal certainty by making provision for the continuity within the domestic legal system of existing EU-derived law upon and following withdrawal.

READ MORE: Supreme Court appeal lodged over Brexit bid

“Regardless of any treaty on the future relationship which may be entered into between the UK and the EU, there is a need to provide for legal certainty and continuity when the UK leaves the EU in March 2019, and that is the purpose and effect of the Scottish Bill.”

The issue the Supreme Court has been asked to decide is “whether the UK Withdrawal from the European Union (Legal Continuity) (Scotland Bill) is within the competence of the Scottish Parliament”.

The Scottish Parliament’s Presiding Officer has previously ruled that the bill is outside Holyrood’s competence - although SNP ministers say they are confident it is not.

ClashCityRocker · 06/12/2018 19:05

Well, the debate looks like its been scrapped.

Waste of bloody time.

Hasenstein · 06/12/2018 19:13

*Well, the debate looks like its been scrapped.

Waste of bloody time.*

I wonder which of them will be more relieved Grin

GrabEmByThePatriarchy · 06/12/2018 19:33

Michael Heseltine is old enough and untouchable enough not to need to give a shit. He can tell unvarnished and inconvenient truths. See also, Ken Clarke. Actually if I were trying to come up with a list of high profile politicians who have the freedom to say exactly what they think, Heseltine would be very near the top.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 19:33

Probably the audience

MyOtherProfile · 06/12/2018 19:34

@GrabEmByThePatriarchy good point well made.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 19:39

Philip Hammond: renegotiation of May's Brexit deal 'a delusion'

Blimey, an adult in the Cabinet, must be lonely there

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/06/philip-hammond-renegotiation-of-mays-brexit-deal-is-a-delusion

Ministers called in to Downing Street as chancellor rules out hope for 11th-hour changes to ‘compromise’ deal with EU
...
His warning [to MP] came as cabinet ministers were called into Downing Street for an informal meeting with the prime minister to discuss the state of play in the run-up to the vote.

A Downing Street source said the meeting was at Theresa May’s request and included soft-Brexiters such as Hammond and the justice secretary, David Gauke,
among those said to be expressing serious concern about the mounting prospect of a no deal if the vote falls next Tuesday.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 19:45

Barnier said that under the WA it would still be possible to negotiate Norway++

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/06/uk-accused-of-watering-down-rights-of-eu-and-british-citizens

At the conference of regional leaders in Brussels,
Barnier stressed that the deal being offered could develop in the transition period into something that would suit those who are calling for the government to pivot towards a “Norway-plus” model

Under that relationship, the UK would have membership of the European Economic Area and the European Free Trade Association, offering single market access, and a permanent customs union.
The negotiations over the terms of such a relationship would have to be hammered out during the transition period, however,

and the backstop for avoiding a hard border on the island of Ireland, which envisions the UK staying in a customs union and Northern Ireland alone staying in the single market, would remain if a satisfactory wider deal is not negotiated.

1tisILeClerc · 06/12/2018 19:53

Bit more 'spitting image anyone'?

OhYouBadBadKitten · 06/12/2018 20:43

"Channel 4 has announced it will hold a debate on Sunday featuring neither Mrs May or Mr Corbyn, but "four high profile politicians" - one backing the PM's deal, one behind a softer Brexit, one for a harder Brexit and one supporting the People's Vote."

Hmm

I thought C4 was better than this. 3 pro brexit and 1 let the people decide is hardly a balanced debate.

SwedishEdith · 06/12/2018 20:47

Keep losing this thread.

MissMalice · 06/12/2018 20:49

Softer Brexit? What does softer than the PMs deal look like??

SwedishEdith · 06/12/2018 20:51

A softer Brexit would mean staying in SM.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 21:00

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Backbench amendment to meaningful vote - laid tonight

Nikki da Costa @nmdacosta
“Backbench”

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
I can't imagine what you are suggesting ... I hear one of the actual govt whips was there, helpfully, signing on behalf of one of the backbenchers who wanted to put his name to it - this maybe, of course, a scurrilous claim

Nikki da Costa @nmdacosta
I know a government amendment when I see one :)

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
Says Number 10 former director of legislative affairs !

Govt sources suggest that they will come behind this amendment - so this IS Number 10’s hoped for backstop compromise - will any rebels budge ?

RTB: whispers This isn't worth the paper its written on, is it? Its meaningless or unworkable if the EU are not happy.

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope
OP posts:
MissMalice · 06/12/2018 21:02

What is the amendment in layspeak?

Hazardswan · 06/12/2018 21:08

I think it means they want to have control via a meaningful vote over the backstop. EU will need to agree to it...not sure why they would though.

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 21:10

Whats this about?

This from yesterday:

Paul Brand @PaulBrandITV
SCOOP: Understand PM and Chief Whip are discussing a new amendment to Meaningful Vote with Brexiteers today, which would provide a 'parliamentary lock' on the backstop, meaning it cannot be entered into without consent of MPs. Hoping this concession can win over backbenchers.

Hasn't yet been decided whether this amendment will be put down by government or perhaps a backbencher, with govt support. Would be similar to John Barron/Edward Leigh amendment. Major outreach project to 'open up discussions' under way by No 10.

Nikki da Costa @nmdacosta
1/7 Babysitting my fab niece all day means some rather late reflections. Others are far more equipped to discuss policy value of such an amendment, so I’ll confine myself to legislative and parliamentary aspects. Comments are not intended to presume how MPs will react

2/7 Finding an amendment around which agreement may be possible is sound approach.

3/7 Any amendment offered now on the meaningful vote in relation to a lock, should be accompanied by promise that it will be taken forward into the Withdrawal Agreement Bill (WAB). Worth explicitly noting that this should be legislated for just as the rest of the WA will be.

4/7 Paul notes discussions around a ‘parliamentary lock’ on the backstop so it cannot be ENTERED into without the consent of MPs. Baron and Leigh’s amendments deal with how you EXIT it. Nonetheless, ensuring parliament has a say is important.

5/7 Please don’t hate me for saying this but that reads an awful lot like the start of MEANINGFUL VOTE MK II. Questions include (a) what will MPs be choosing between and is it a meaningful choice (b) How exactly will MPs make that decision and what information will they be given

6/7 Will the vote be via approving (or otherwise) secondary legislation or will it be a Commons approval motion? And, oh god I hate myself, will it be an amendable motion?

7/7 More granular detail - Baron’s (f) on the order paper allows for conditional approval of the WA/FR subject to a unilateral exit mechanism being secured. Different to what is being rumoured.

(Her last tweet refers to another amendment, but with the news this evening of a 'backbench' amendment, it makes more sense).

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frumpety · 06/12/2018 21:13

Two things that have sprung to mind today

  1. May was very insistent that the WA is actually The Deal , why ?
  1. She is never seen with a handbag, ridiculous necklaces a go go , but no handbag, again why ?
RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 21:14

Nikki also comments on this, which makes you go wtf:

ITV News @itvnews
Usually, the government's Chief Whip keeps the workings of his team a closely-guarded secret.
But with a landmark vote on Theresa May's Brexit deal looming, ITV News was allowed a rare insight into what goes on behind the scenes
twitter.com/itvnews/status/1070725027589484546

Nikki da Costa @nmdacosta
I’m sorry I’m old school on this. Chief Whip’s don’t do media - it’s not about them and their ego! Did No 10 sanction this?

Nikki da Costa @nmdacosta
View from another old school Whips SpAd

Chris White @cgwOMT
The Chief Whip, in the middle of the most important vote the PM has faced in her premiership, has allowed a TV crew in to film the inner workings of the whips office. This is a monumentally bad idea 1/

Firstly, it's a distraction. I was involved in the filming of the Michael Cockerell documentary Inside the Commons in 2014/15. It took ages - film crews asking for reshoots, the team ensuring nothing sensitive is said on camera that could be misconstrued. 2/

Secondly, the Chief Whip needs to be focusing on improving the numbers. Every moment of the whips time needs to be speaking to MPs, getting them onside, not doing interviews with journalists 3/

The clip where the Chief is trying to get Philip Davies on side is ludicrous. If you're going to do this (which you shouldn't), why choose an MP that you are never going to persuade. Anyone with any sense would have carefully vetted the MP to ensure you can win them round 4/

What has now happened is the ineffectiveness of the Chief's operation is laid bare for the whole parliamentary party to see. Instead of persuading an MP with argument, you see a Chief who is told that he "can't" persuade him 5/

In the 48 hours since I wrote my @ConHome , I've had several MPs and staffers contact me to say that they haven't been spoken to by their whip in person for up to six months - that's an incredible length of time! 6/
www.conservativehome.com/platform/2018/12/chris-white-may-faces-a-huge-task-and-she-has-made-it-harder-for-herself-by-neglecting-the-whips-office.html

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SwedishEdith · 06/12/2018 21:17

Jon Tonge
‏*@JonTonge*

Who is going to gently break the news to Hugo Swire re his amendment that there hasn’t been a N. Ireland Executive and Assembly for nearly two years and it isn’t coming back anytime soon?

twitter.com/JonTonge/status/1070788601695404032

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/12/2018 21:22

Theresa May’s Team Has Discussed A Second Referendum Or A Softer Brexit If Her Deal Is Killed Next Week

“It has come to the point where you feel like you are in that Mitchell and Webb sketch when one of the Nazis looks at the other and asks, ‘Are we the baddies?’” a Number 10 aide told BuzzFeed News.

www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/may-team-second-referendum-soft-brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 21:27

red I'm sure the EU hasn't agreed to render the NI backstop optional

and still won't, even if the WA passed with this amendment
(which it still probably won't)

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 21:33

Well, May was insisting for months that she wouldn't call a GE ... right up until she called one

and she's been insisting for months she wouldn't call a PV ....

However, a PV wuld take at least 24 weeks to organise
So, she'd need EU agreement to an extension
AND
the EU would likely refuse any PV that included a fantasy WA with an optional backstop

It would have to be Remain vs something real

IrenetheQuaint · 06/12/2018 21:35

Just reading Kent County Council's no-deal preparation plan. Cheery stuff:

democracy.kent.gov.uk/documents/s88112/Item%207%20-%20Brexit.pdf

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