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Brexit

Westministenders: Plan B on the back of a Contempt Envelope

945 replies

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2018 21:35

You could say its been an eventful day in BrexitWorld!

  1. The Advocate General's opinion (non-binding) is that a50 CAN be revocated unilaterally provided its in good faith (not done merely to extend the a50 period and is a settled commitment to stay in the EU. This is NOT the ECJ verdict. This is still due. The ECJ does occasionally disagree with the Advocate General, but this is rare. This is important and will affect how MPs view how they will vote next week in the Withdrawal Agreement vote.

  2. IF the ECJ rule in this way it does not rule out the EU appealing the decision.

The logic of the AG argument largely centres on the point that if the UK is sovereign then it can unilaterally withdraw from international treaties so it must also be allowed to revoke that decision otherwise it's not sovereign. Its hard to see how the ECJ will be able to go against that opinion.

Politically that could make an appeal difficult for the EU. However there is also much to say the EU WILL appeal though, if only because of concerns about how the a50 process could be abused by other countries such as Poland or Hungary to effectively renegotiate their status in the block. This possibility should not be forgotten. The 'good faith' argument is a legal minefield given the UK's behaviour in the last two years, if someone did want to challenge an ECJ unilateral ruling.

  1. The government lost two votes regarding contempt of parliament and not releasing the full legal advice on Brexit.

The first vote was for a government amendment which they lost by 4 votes - which has been claimed is down to the DUP voting with Labour instead of the government. The result was 311 to 307 votes.

The second vote was for the actual contempt motion itself. Again the government lost. The result was 311 to 293 - or 18 votes. So some Tory MPs abstained on this vote.

This marks the point where the government is officially a minority government and May no longer has a majority.

  1. Dominic Grieve tabled a motion (hereby named Grieve III), which was essentially a re issuing of Grieve II - the motion that he had proposed previously, but had been talked out of my May, only for her to burn him shortly afterwards.

This motion was supported by the regular Remain Rebels as well a bunch of known (and not insignificant) May Loyalists.

The effect of the amendment is thought to create a situation where 'Accidental' No Deal is no longer a default position. Instead if no deal is reached, it throws power back to the HoC to advice the government what steps they should now take.

It does not rule out the possibility of No Deal. It is still possible. Its just a lot less likely to. Brexiteers are arguing that the vote is not legally binding (Technically its not and they are correct). This seems highly unlikely in practice (politically not an option - the vote is politically binding, if not legally) even if that is the case. See the referendum for legally v politicially binding and how that has worked out. But there is room for a mess here too.

There is certainly no majority for No Deal in the HoC.

Grieve III was won by 22 votes (321 to 299). Thus making this a SIGNIFICANT vote in more than one respect.

  1. Prior to the Grieve III vote, there were rumours that May was set to lose Tuesday's WA vote by up to as much as 400 votes.

There was a lot of talk that the government were prepared to lose the vote, with a view to representing the deal at a later stage. The vote next week was about minimising the size of the defeat.

However this relied on May being in full control of the options for Plan B. Grieve III limits this somewhat and puts power in the hands of parliament. (Parliament has taken back control you see).

It does not direct the government as such but it makes it much more likely that Plan B will have to be Nick Boles suggestion for Norway, rather than May's version of Plan B and a simple re-presentation of her deal.

Of course, this is over simplified as the EU and the EEA ALSO would have to go for the Nick Boles plan. The suggestion is that Norway WOULD agree to it, PROVIDED we were fully committed to it for the long term. But its not just down to Norway.

  1. All this might well focus minds ahead of next week's vote. There are now three forces at work a) Brexiteers fearing that the likelihood of remain or a soft brexit have gone up, thus potentially being more inclined to support May. (This doesn't appear to be happening) b) The overall chances of No Deal decreasing, thus soft leavers being happier to pursue the opportunity for a soft Brexit (Norway deal) rather than supporting May's deal - at least at this stage. c) The hope of remaining due to the AG verdict combined with Grieve III encouraging remainers to not back May's Deal as they no longer fear the possibility of Accidental No Deal.

It has been suggested that its possible that the government allowed themselves to be defeated on the contempt motion in order to woo the ERG. This seems a bit of a stretch, as May has repeatedly proved that she isn't this kind of genius and Cox would have to have agreed to be the sacrifical lamb for that.

  1. The contempt of parliament motion now passes to the Parliamentary Privilege Committee to decide what punishment will be levelled on the government and Cox in particular. It is worth noting that at present, there are 7 on the committee; 3 Cons, 3 Lab and 1 SNP. Which you would suspect does not bode well for government.

  2. There is STILL some arguement over which version of the legal advice the government will publish as a result of the contempt vote, and when it will publish it. In theory there could be another contempt vote if it fails to act in a way that the house is satisfied with.

  3. The government are pretty pissed off at the Humble Address motions, and are now seeking to find ways to limit them.

  4. There is some suggestion that something has happened that opens the door for the US to leave NATO. This would be hugely significant to Brexit. Keep your eyes on this.

  5. When Cox spoke in the commons earlier this week, he made the point that Brexit means we are bound by the GFA to remain in the ECHR. And the ECHR also binds us to the GFA. Again significant, when talking about wanting to force a situation where we have Accidental No Deal, given the strength of feeling about wanting to leave the ECHR. If the Accidental No Deal door is closed, then this might also change ERG opinions as their motivition to have a hard Brexit is also reduced.

And of course the backstop is, to all intents and purposes, the GFA. It will be interesting to see how the backstop is framed in the full legal advice.

  1. Going back to point 1, there are still obstacles to remaining. May and the Conservatives are HIGHLY unlikely to want to revoke because of the damage to the party.

There is some talk about who has the power to revoke; parliament or the PM. The overall problem is that the PM does not have the power to overturn Acts relating to Brexit which have been passed by the HoC, although the original a50 vote passed the power to enact a50 to the PM from the house - and presumably the reverse would also be true if the PM has the power of a50.

Thus to revoke - IF the ECJ say we can - it has to be passed by parliament. At this stage there is no parliamentary majority to remain. This, of course, could change. It depends on what the alternatives are - arguably the likilhood of remaining is perhaps higher if accidental brexit is possible and the only alternative. Otherwise a soft exit would seem more logical.

  1. Corbyn's speech in the commons in response to May's presenting the Withdrawal Agreement sounds remarkably like continuity remain, to an extent that he has not previously gone.

Conclusion:
Overall, Grieve III is massively positive, purely from the point of view of avoiding No Deal.

Next week STILL gives the opportunity for MORE amendments which could create enormous problems though. The potential to end up in a situation with amendments which are positions which are diametrically opposed to each other or to the EU or the legal situation are huge. This would mark something of a crisis in its own right.

Its difficult to see where May goes from here. Her ability to force her deal though, rested on the leverage of the fear of No Deal / being in complete control of what Plan B was. Grieve III kills a lot of that, and combined with the preliminary opinion on revocation. Her only alternative is to go for Norway - like a lot of her Cabinet have already pushed for, but this would be a massive u-turn for her. The Times were speculating this morning that she will walk next week. But we've been here so many times before.

I suspect other posters and commentators will read all this differently to me (will be interesting to see how others view it) but this is my best shot at trying to make some sense of it all. I think the biggest bone of contention will be the balance of probability of the options out there.

PS: DO NOT forget the EU's own self interest which is consistently forgotten in the UK coverage and debate of the subject.The EU have no obligation to do a Norway deal. Nor to extend a50 if they do not see it being in their own interests to do so.

I wouldn't get hopes up too much just yet, but today does feel like a potential turning point. We have to get through next week though. I don't rule out anything at this point. All options are still possible and I wouldn't like to put money on anything. But a soft brexit or remaining are more tangible than they were at 7am this morning imho.

Feel free to take this all apart with your own analysis!

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DGRossetti · 06/12/2018 15:46

Except there's that rumour the HoC vote may be postponed from Tuesday because the government know they'll lose?

December 18th keeps jumping out from various places. No idea why.

GD12 · 06/12/2018 15:47

^^ What else can May do? The UK can't leave the backstop on its own because then it won't be a backstop and the EU won't negotiate. May is stuffed.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 15:50

Important Dates

  • Monday 10 Dec (10 am UK time); ECJ deliver verdict on A50 revocation

  • Tuesday 11 Dec: HoC vote on the WA

  • 13-14 Dec, next Thur-Fri:
    European Council, attended by all EU heads of govt

May will be expected to present a summary of the status and next steps to her fellow leaders.

One step they won't accept is renegotiating this particular WA,
other than any cosmetic change, or deliberate giveaway that Barnier may have built into the WA.

GD12 · 06/12/2018 15:51

Also, do Tories that are advocating Norway realise that would need a backstop?

DGRossetti · 06/12/2018 15:53

What else can May do?

Carry on lying ?

There comes a point where sheer gall must become some sort of psychosis ?

For all the "MPs will be involved in the backstop", the reality is whatever MPs do or don't want will be immaterial. The backstop kicks in automatically. Sure, parliament can pass a vote ignoring it. But the EU won't. And neither will the UN. And if the UK wants to continue sliding down the list of "countries other countries give a fuck about", pissing off the UN is a good way to start.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 15:53

DG The problem with abandoning / postponing the 11 Dec WA vote is that European Council meeting

If May goes there, say she didn't even try to get the WA voted through, then asks for help ....
they'd probably tell her to go back and have the sodding vote first

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 15:57

Then - if the WA is voted down - they'll tell her to woman up and decide, preferably without a PV:
Revoke or No Deal

If they are kind & patient, they might suggest Option #3:

she abandons her red lines and Barnier will change the WA PD to an intention to negotiate Norway++ in 3-4 years
... but they may have no more kindness ... or time, to waste on Brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 06/12/2018 16:00

GD12 Any kind of Brexit needs a backstop, including Norway++
because the Uk has shown it is considering walking away from any obligations,
that it doesn't regard anything it signs as permanent, or even longterm, if it conflicts with Tory party interest

Hazardswan · 06/12/2018 16:02

Thank you for the info GaspodeWonderCat Cake keep us posted. I'm another wondering if it'll need contempt motion as well.

If there's a referendum on death by Belgium chocolate or novichok - I'm voting chocolate been practising for years Xmas Grin

LucheroTena · 06/12/2018 16:10

Anyone see Heseltines speech in HOLs? Warning that Brexit will cause terrible harm for those least able to withstand it, that people will remember it was a Tory party who caused all of it. And that hewNts no part of it?

When Heseltine is the voice of compassion and reason we’re fucked. Why isnt fucking labour speaking out and stopping all this shite?

LucheroTena · 06/12/2018 16:10

He wants no part of it. Sorry typo

1tisILeClerc · 06/12/2018 16:13

{Carry on lying ?}
Not sure many of the original cast are with us any more from the 'Carry on' franchise.
Mind you the original plotlines (!) are more coherent.

DGRossetti · 06/12/2018 16:13

... but they may have no more kindness ... or time, to waste on Brexit

no "may" about it (although it's possibly the "May" about it which has been the problem all along).

for all the anglophone discussion bubble thinking it can talk and those johnny foreigners can't understand us that's been going on, there's been a counterpoint of non-English discussion around the EU about moving on. There's a variety of initiatives, plans and policies that the EU27 are keen to crack on with that the past 2 years have effectively stalled.

The UK had it's chance, it's called in all it's favours. It will not be allowed to drag the EU27 to a standstill anymore. The best analogy is to see the EU as a whole as a bus with each individual country as a passenger. The UK has pulled the communication cord, and the driver is looking for the best place to slow down so the UK can jump safely off. That place has been identified, the bus is slowing down, and it's up to the UK to jump. If the UK misses because it's arguing about whether it lands in cow shit or sheep shit, the bus will speed up. And the UK will have to jump out at 60, 70 mph.

(I did write that analogy with trains at first, but given the rather literal and limited critical faculties of some Leavers, I rewrote it using a bus. After all, a bus can go wherever it's passengers decide, unlike a train which suggests some sort of predestination ...)

1tisILeClerc · 06/12/2018 16:15

For younger viewers, the old 'Spitting Image' programmes on Youtube are fun.

1tisILeClerc · 06/12/2018 16:18

{ And the UK will have to jump out at 60, 70 mph.}
Tut Tut, I don't think so, it's all Km over here!

1tisILeClerc · 06/12/2018 16:19

I had a quick look at a couple of German papers last night, not a hint of Brexit, but Der Spiegel was discussing the issues in Ukraine.

Loletta · 06/12/2018 16:26

The UK had it's chance, it's called in all it's favours. It will not be allowed to drag the EU27 to a standstill anymore. The best analogy is to see the EU as a whole as a bus with each individual country as a passenger. The UK has pulled the communication cord, and the driver is looking for the best place to slow down so the UK can jump safely off. That place has been identified, the bus is slowing down, and it's up to the UK to jump. If the UK misses because it's arguing about whether it lands in cow shit or sheep shit, the bus will speed up. And the UK will have to jump out at 60, 70 mph.

Brilliant analogy!

(I did write that analogy with trains at first, but given the rather literal and limited critical faculties of some Leavers, I rewrote it using a bus. After all, a bus can go wherever it's passengers decide, unlike a train which suggests some sort of predestination ...)
GrinGrinGrin

Hazardswan · 06/12/2018 16:27

Great analogy DG

DGRossetti · 06/12/2018 16:30

Possibly angling for the next OED definition of "pointless" ?

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-expats-eu-high-court-legal-challenge-referendum-campaign-spending-a8492641.html

independent.co.uk
British expats in the EU launch High Court bid to have Brexit overturned
@BenKentish
6-8 minutes

British expats living in other EU countries have launched a legal bid to overturn the outcome of the Brexit vote.

The High Court challenge claims the unlawful behaviour of Leave campaigners in the run-up to the 2016 referendum should “nullify the result”.

It has been launched by the UK in EU Challenge group, made up of Britons living in France, Italy and Spain.

They are seeking a judicial review after the two main pro-Brexit campaigns, Vote Leave and Leave.EU, were fined by the Electoral Commission for breaching electoral laws.

Vote Leave was fined £61,000 and reported to the police after being found to have broken spending rules, while Leave.EU was told to pay £70,000 for also failing to properly declare spending.

UK in EU Challenge said: “The rights of the estimated one to two million British nationals who live, work or have other interests in other member states are profoundly affected by Brexit.

“In the event of a ‘no deal’, they will lose their current legal status.

“Even if there is a deal, they risk losing their right to live and work in other EU countries.”

The group said the offences committed by the pro-Brexit groups mean the government’s invoking of Article 50 should be declared void, and the Brexit process reversed.

Their argument will be heard by a High Court judge, who will decide whether there are grounds for a full review.

The group is being represented by lawyers who were previously involved in the successful Supreme Court bid to force the government to give parliament a vote before triggering Article 50.

Rupert Croft, one of the group’s lawyers, said: “Our clients contend that the prime minister’s decision to trigger Article 50 and start the Brexit process was based on a factual error, namely that the referendum truly represented the will of the people following a lawful, free and fair vote.”

Sue Wilson, who lives in Spain and is involved in the legal challenge, said: “We hope to demonstrate that you can’t win by cheating.

“If there is another referendum, there mustn’t be a repeat of the illegal activity witnessed last time round.”

She added: “We have not taken back control – we have been put in the hands of those that care more about their careers and political party than their country.

“The UK deserves better, we deserve better, and we won’t stop fighting until we succeed.”

icannotremember · 06/12/2018 16:36

When Heseltine is the voice of compassion and reason we’re fucked. Why isnt fucking labour speaking out and stopping all this shite?

Because apparently, not letting leave voters feel 'betrayed' is more important than not actually betraying an entire country Hmm. If I have to hear one more person tell me "we can't have a second referendum because leave voters will feel betrayed"...

puttingthegenieback · 06/12/2018 16:49

When Heseltine is the voice of compassion and reason we’re fucked. Why isnt fucking labour speaking out and stopping all this shite?

Anyone else disgusted and disheartened by McConnell's weak and waffling performance in the HoC today?

puttingthegenieback · 06/12/2018 16:58

sorry typo McDonnell

ElenadeClermont · 06/12/2018 17:00

Survation Is looking for participants for a real Brexit debate on Sunday: mailchi.mp/aeed642ee47e/new-channel-4-to-host-the-real-brexit-debate-with-leading-politicians-and-a-live-studio-audience-on-sunday-december-9th-1120245?e=235556f6f9

EtVoilaBrexit · 06/12/2018 17:52

www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-theresa-may-deal-vote-parliament-commons-second-referendum-article-50-ecj-a8670786.html

An interesting article form a Leaver perspective.
I bet that they are annoyed at been asked the same questions again and again. And annoyed that people are Not getting what they think is obvious -soreignety.

I’m a bit more Hmm atvthe idea that Remain somehow told lies during the Campaign but not the Leave side.
And that it’s Remain that has to answer questions rather than always asking them....

But it’s probably a very good insight to how my PIL are thinking....

RedToothBrush · 06/12/2018 18:33

I've had the in-law visiting today (DH is working away), but I will do a new dump shortly after DS is in bed.

Before that though, here's a rather interesting take by YouGov.

They asked people to give a preference for deal, no deal or no brexit.

This is what they found:

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2018/12/06/mays-brexit-deal-leads-just-two-constituencies-it-?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=website_article&utm_campaign=brexit_deal_model
May’s Brexit deal leads in just two constituencies as it suffers from being everyone’s second choice

The results show that as things stand, when it comes to their first choices Theresa May’s deal is ahead in just two constituencies – the Tory-held constituencies of Broxbourne and Christchurch, and gaining just 27% across Britain.

That puts it behind Remain – which has 46% support nationally and is first preference in 600 constituencies – and level pegging with No Deal (also 27%), although No Deal is first choice in 30 seats. This model excludes the 12% of people who said they don’t know.

Well...

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