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Brexit

Westminstenders: May plays Sale of the Century

946 replies

RedToothBrush · 28/11/2018 12:17

Theresa May is currently in the midst of a campaign to sell her deal to the public. Unfortunately she appears that there are only 649 people she needs to sell it to, and that's not going so well.

She attempted a sales pitch to potential Labour rebels and succeeded in getting them to actively decide to vote against her.

There are currently 100 backbench tories who have stated they will vote against it, which makes parliamentary maths very difficult.

There is a rising support for plan b in the form of Norway Plus. This may make Remainers less likely to vote for a deal but persuade some leavers to back May.

The ECJ A50 Court case has been heard. Judgment has not been given yet. Its due 'soon'.

Next week the Withdrawal Agreement will be debated in Parliament with the vote due at 7pm on Tuesday 11th December.

Expect a rough couple of weeks.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 11:53

The comments on that article are a pretty good indication of the level of fury about Brexit amongst people that the Tories really need to vote Tory to have a hope of getting elected. Ever again. I can't see any of those posters being assuaged by a faux "deal" leading to a shit Brexit.

Anyway, let's sit back, grab some 🍿and enjoy todays installment of "why I should be able to ignore democracy"

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46419790

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 11:57

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Westminstenders: May plays Sale of the Century
BigChocFrenzy · 03/12/2018 12:11

An analysis by the BBC found reported spending on care for the over-65s has fallen by a quarter to £747 per head in England since 2010
once inflation is taken into account.

Wales & Scotland have much smaller cuts:

www.bbc.com/news/health-46378353

Westminstenders: May plays Sale of the Century
DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 12:19

Sadly, in the past few years, I've had to stop and decide whether I should type "Britain" or "England" or "England & Wales" or "Scotland" or "Northern Ireland" when in discussion.

Something I never did at school - it simply wasn't a thing Sad

prettybird · 03/12/2018 12:52

Healthcare has always been run separately in Scotland; it is just with devolution and probably even more so the IndyRef that the rest of the UK has become aware of the differences.

The BBC never used to be good at presenting this: they'd run whole articles about the latest spending/waiting list/hospital admissions statistics and not mention that they were just talking about NHS England Hmm. Indeed, until a few years ago, NHS England wasn't even called NHS England - it was just called the NHS as the default Confused. NHS Scotland was the aberration. Hmm

So you shouldn't feel guilty DGR Grin

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 13:04

So you shouldn't feel guilty DGR

Not guilty. Just sad.

Not waving. But drowning.

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 15:50

brexitcentral.com/leaked-commons-legal-analysis-brexit-deal-vindicates-trump-contradicts-may-adds-brexiteers-concerns/

brexitcentral.com
Leaked Commons legal analysis of Brexit deal vindicates Trump, contradicts May and adds to Brexiteers' concerns | BrexitCentral
8-9 minutes

The Government is already on the rack over its refusal to publish the legal advice provided on the Brexit deal by Attorney General, Geoffrey Cox, despite a parliamentary motion ordering it to be done.

Cox will make a statement on the matter in the House of Commons later today (Monday 3rd December), during which he will doubtless be questioned about the leak in the Sunday Times of a letter he wrote in which he admitted that the UK would be trapped “indefinitely” in a customs union with the EU if the backstop comes into effect.

But ministers now face further questions as it emerges that a confidential analysis of the Withdrawal Agreement by the House of Commons’ own expert legal team comes to the same conclusion as President Trump – that Theresa May’s Brexit deal would prevent the UK from entering trade deals with countries such as the US.

The bombshell is contained in a 27-page legal note prepared by the House of Commons EU Legislation Team, which is headed by Arnold Ridout, its Counsel for European Legislation. A highly respected specialist in EU Law, he has previously worked for the EC Commission’s Legal Service and advised the European Secretariat of the Cabinet Office and prior to taking up his current role in 2014, he was Deputy Legal Adviser to the House of Lords EU Select Committee.

The note – marked ‘not for general distribution’ and obtained by BrexitCentral – is dated 26th November and states that the UK-EU customs union which would come into effect if the backstop is triggered “would be a practical barrier to the UK entering separate trade agreements on goods with third countries”.

This is in direct contradiction to the Prime Minister who has insisted that her deal will allow the UK to have an entirely independent trade policy. Indeed, she told the House of Commons just last Monday how “for the first time in 40 years, the UK will be able to strike new trade deals and open up new markets for our goods and services”.

The legal note – titled The Withdrawal Agreement: Legal and Governance Aspects – also appears to suggest that the Prime Minister’s claim (also repeated last Monday) that her deal “takes back control of our laws” by ending “the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK” with “our laws being made in our Parliament, enforced by our courts” does not entirely stand up to scrutiny.

In its summary of “Continued application of EU law”, the note states:

EU law will apply during the TIP [transition or implementing period], but essentially without formal UK participation in its making;
EU law will apply after the TIP to protect the rights of EU citizens in the UK. This could extend for some considerable period.
EU law also will apply after the TIP in relation to the Separation Issues and the Financial Settlement. Again, this could extend for a considerable period.
EU law will apply extensively, particularly in Northern Ireland, under the “Backstop” found in the Ireland/Northern Ireland Protocol.
EU law in relation to goods, turnover taxes, agriculture and fisheries as well as veterinary and phytosanitary rules will apply in the Sovereign Base Areas of Cyprus.
After the end of the TIP the CJEU will continue to determine the interpretation of EU law applicable under the WA by the mandatory reference procedure from the arbitration panel.

Moreover, if the backstop has been triggered and the UK-EU customs union established, it adds that:

“The UK will conform to specific EU legislation on customs, including with respect to third countries. To provide a ‘level playing-field’ the UK commits to non-regression (from the law as it stands at the end of the TIP) on EU environmental protection, labour and social standards, state aid and competition and state-owned undertakings in respect of administration of tax…. On the UK side of the customs union, in the ‘United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland’, specific additional EU legislation applies on customs, certain VAT and excise, and certain technical standards relating to goods”.

Another section in the document which caught my eye concerns what happens when the proposed Joint Committee (of representatives of both the EU and UK) which supervises the Withdrawal Agreement and the backstop cannot reach a consensus on certain issues:

“Both UK and EU are represented on the Joint Committee, so no decision may be made without the UK’s agreement. This may not be the same thing as the two parties having equal power, as the aims of the parties will matter. If the Joint Committee is unable to reach a decision, in some circumstances, that will block next steps. The party that wants those next steps to occur, will then be at a practical disadvantage. By way of example, i) the Joint Committee sets the limits of state aid that can be authorised by the UK for agriculture. If limits are not agreed, state aid may not be authorised.”

In other words, in those circumstances the UK would not be free to set levels of subsidy for UK agriculture, but the EU would remain free to adjust its Common Agricultural Policy however it liked. EU products would therefore have open access to the UK market via the customs union, while Brussels could stop us subsidising agriculture at all unless it was agreed in the Joint Committee.

And given that the proceedings of the Joint Committee will be confidential, the document concludes that “the absence of transparency would impact on any proposal for Parliamentary scrutiny of the UK participation in the working of the JC”.

Meanwhile, many readers will have concerns about the potential for the UK being disadvantaged over the working of the arbitration panel appointed for the purposes of dispute resolution. It will comprise five people: two nominated by each party and a chairperson from a list agreed by both, and also be encouraged to try to take decisions by consensus, but can decide by majority.

As the legal note explains:

“This raises the prospect of a decision adverse to the UK on the view of the EU appointed panel members and the jointly appointed chairperson outvoting the view of the UK appointed panel members.”

Reacting to the contents of the document, Conservative MP Marcus Fysh, who sits on the International Trade Select Committee and European Scrutiny Committee, told BrexitCentral:

“This document identifies and explains many of the very serious legal problems for the UK that would emerge from the Prime Minister’s proposed Withdrawal Agreement, should it be approved. It is wishful thinking and irresponsible to accept the Government’s spin of this damaging legal reality, or to think it could be used as a basis for successful further negotiation. I don’t believe any MP in possession of these facts could in good conscience ignore them and support the Withdrawal Agreement.

“The EU and UK have a great future as friends, but this is not the way to achieve it. Let’s waste no more time, prepare for all eventualities, and work constructively for an advanced but regular Free Trade Agreement which respects the independence and integrity of our jurisdictions while making trade and community relations smooth, effective and efficient. We have set out how to do this, contrary to the Government’s attempt to say otherwise, and there is no reason a plan and schedule for ratification of such an agreement cannot be agreed by the end of March so conditions remain smooth from the end of March until that happens. That is the way to preserve the faith the people of the UK have in their politics, and we need a Government that will ask for it.”

You can view the leaked document for yourself below or by clicking here to see it as a pdf.

Withdrawal Agreement Legal and Governance Aspects

lonelyplanetmum · 03/12/2018 16:08

Thanks for that advent gift DGR.

To provide a ‘level playing-field’ the UK commits to non-regression (from the law as it stands at the end of the TIP) on EU environmental protection, labour and social standards.

On the one hand good! But those MPs ( like mine) who think that workers' rights shouldn't get in the way of profit aren't going to be persuaded to tow the line by the 11 th now are they.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/12/2018 16:13

Although I suppose they still may vote in favour if they are persuaded that it is very unlikely it will be triggered.

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 16:19

I think TL;DR is that despite all the froth and appearance of "progress" in the past 2 weeks, the hard reality is nothing has been settled, sorted, agreed, or made clear.

If Theresa Mays premiership had been a little less disingenuous, she might have slipped this past the dogs. The problem is she's managed to be caught out so many times, no one trusts her.

There's as many reasons for Labour MPs to not support the WA as Tories ...

There's also as many reasons for Leavers to want a fresh referendum as Remainers.

It's still a textbook illustration of stalemate.

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 16:24

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-economy-pmi/uk-factories-see-inventories-up-exports-down-as-brexit-nears-pmi-idUKKBN1O20TM

UK factories see inventories up, exports down, as Brexit nears - PMI

LONDON, Dec 3 (Reuters) - - The approach of Brexit was felt in Britain’s factories in November as companies stocked up on parts to counter any border delays and exports suffered a rare back-to-back fall, a survey showed on Monday.

The IHS Markit/CIPS Manufacturing Purchasing Managers’ Index (PMI) rose to 53.1 from 51.1 in October, its weakest reading since the Brexit referendum.

Although the index proved stronger than all the forecasts in a Reuters poll of economists, it was still one of the lowest since voters decided to leave the European Union in June 2016.

Stock-building, as well as new product launches, helped new orders to grow after a rare contraction in October.

Many manufacturers are building up inventories of parts to protect themselves against the risks of customs delays at the border when Britain leaves the EU on March 29.

A separate survey published overnight by a manufacturers group also found that British companies were increasing their inventory levels while demand for exports fell.

Prime Minister Theresa May risks seeing the Brexit plan she agreed with other EU leaders — which includes a transition period to ease Britain out of the bloc — being rejected by parliament in a vote on Dec. 11.

IHS Markit said new export business dropped for a second month in a row in November, the first back-to-back contraction since early 2016, and companies reported Brexit uncertainty as one of the main reasons behind the fall.

Optimism among manufacturers dipped to a 27-month low.

IHS Markit director Rob Dobson said the survey suggested manufacturing output risked shrinking in the fourth quarter of 2018 unless there is a bounce-back in December.

Britain’s economy has slowed since the Brexit referendum in 2016 but not by as much as many forecasters predicted at the time of the vote. Last week the Bank of England and the finance ministry said that under any Brexit scenario the economy would grow more slowly than if Britain stayed in the EU.

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 16:26

more Prof. Cox ...

Westminstenders: May plays Sale of the Century
Hazardswan · 03/12/2018 16:27

Anyone see TM on This Morning? It was interesting. Question what happens if the deal is voted down? the answer was we're risking no brexit....no brexit was said as if it it were a bad thing Grin

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 16:32

Anyone see TM on This Morning? It was interesting. Question what happens if the deal is voted down? the answer was we're risking no brexit

Thus illustrating the circle/square situation still hasn't been resolved.

There are leavers and remainers who'd be happy with "no Brexit" (and that's before we consider the linguistic confusion discussed upthread).

DGRossetti · 03/12/2018 16:59

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Westminstenders: May plays Sale of the Century
prettybird · 03/12/2018 17:30

Cox has just effectively admitted, in response to a very good question from Hilary Benn, that because the UK is in an extraordinary and unique situation, it will uniquely in the world, be prepared to ignore an international treaty, "in the best interests of the country". Shock

And that other countries are expected to "understand this unique situation" Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 03/12/2018 17:53

Illustrating yet again why we must fight against the ERG / Atlantic Bridge wish for the UK to have a Brexit that allows Trump's FTA, i.e. Canada+ or WTO / No Deal

The NHS is clearly in their sights

The NHS is not "cheating" the US, as Trump claims.

It may be that the NHS used its size & purchasing power - as it should - to get a better deal than US healthcare providers.
US healthcare is very expensive, because they pay more for many meds and procedures than anywhere else in the world

Quietrebel · 03/12/2018 18:04

Re nhs and the us, it's disgusting and has been the strategy for a while. It's a big jumbo sale of the UK assets and directly at the expense of British patients. The missed nhs targets and long waiting times will absolutely PALE in comparison of what's awaiting us. Selling your house or treating your cancer- that's going to be a real choice with those bastards. Leavers? That's what you voted for I suppose?

Yaralie · 03/12/2018 18:48

The government are proposing, if brexit happens, to have an immigration policy which would severely restrict the number of "low skilled migrants".

They define low-skilled as earning less than £30k per year, which would exclude most care workers and many nurses, teachers, engineers, architects, etc. Low skilled? I don't think so. These overpaid politicians do not seem to realise that many higly skilled people in this country are paid far less than they are worth.

RebeccaHatesFortnit · 03/12/2018 18:55

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Peregrina · 03/12/2018 19:05

The NHS is clearly in their sights
The NHS is not "cheating" the US, as Trump claims.

So we deliberately turn our backs on Germany, France, Denmark and Italy - four countries which I know we obtain our current medicines from so that we pay more to American pharma. The one thing that Leavers did vote for was money for the NHS.

Where are our Leaver posters? Why don't they come on and tell us that they a) find the American approach acceptable or b) admit that no, this is not what they voted for.

As Remainers we have to get this information disseminated as far and wide as possible - people in the UK do value the NHS, and it's already being eroded by stealth.

Peregrina · 03/12/2018 19:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lonelyplanetmum · 03/12/2018 20:17

So we deliberately turn our backs on Germany, France, Denmark and Italy - four countries which I know we obtain our current medicines from so that we pay more to American pharma.

I'm always interested in timings. So is Trump's intelligence telling him that the WA is looking like it will be voted down? So no deal likelihood is increasing so he's unilaterally getting a pre emptive strike in ready for any requests for medical supplies?

Or has disgraced etc Liam Fox already been exploring emergency pharma supplies and they've fallen out over pricing?

mathanxiety · 03/12/2018 20:48

Wrt Cox's admission to Benn, and the idea of walking away from international treaties - it's sounding more and more like the run-up to the invasion of Czechoslovakia.

Do these people not hear themselves? They seek to sign umpteen binding international agreements in the near future and they are contemplating walking away from one that earned the Nobel prize for the two politicians who made it happen... Do they think nobody will notice?

prettybird · 03/12/2018 20:51

mathanxiety - he wasn't just talking about the GFA - he was referring to the obligations of the WA as well Shock

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