Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?

[RedToothBrush]

Tick tick tick.

What do we think?

Yes? No?

Another week of wtf-ing at British politics.

Enough of these serious matters. What we all needed to know is how Larry gets into No 10.
A short video on SKY news.

field Not true that the EU have abandoned us
It's just they daren't interfere and are keeping quiet atm, because any remark is seized on & twisted by the UK media

The EU Commission up to now has often expressed regret about Brexit,
saying that everyone loses - the E27 and us -
and that we can still Remain, or if we Leave they'd Fast Track a Rejoin during transition.
That hasn't changed, but has just been muted

They are not prepared to reopen the WA negotiations, because there is no time left
However, the mood music is that after Brexit they would negotiate a much closer relarionship than the CU, IF the govt wants this at any time during transition

I live in Germany and there is sadness as well as bewilderment that we have this chaos
France too, trying to make Calais as easy as possible
NL will suffer too, as will Spain

• in fact I think the Commission and the countries most affected - our main trading partners - are frantically beefing up their no deal prep, in case the HoC rejects the WA

at the end of the day I don't want to leave the EU! That's it. That's my red line. I don't want to leave

^This, Leaving the EU is a massive mistake for all of us.

tbh i'd prefer a sort of no-deal - with a series of emergency deals to keep planes flying, meds etc, than her fudge cake, made not in the national interest but done to keep the Tory party in one piece and in government with the DUP.

Tories bang on about Corbyn getting into power, if the WA doesn't get through etc etc but forget to say that can only happen in a democratic vote... in other words "will of the People" that they are so hot on.

Talks The EU - contrary to some popular belief - cannot stop member countries carrying out perfectly legal policies, however stupid.
They have few powers and have already spent years trying to handle the neofascist govt of Hungary, with Poland heading that way too
They really are very far from a USE

btw, when I voted Remain in 1975, I actively wanted a USE, because I felt inspired by the European ideals and also I was exasperated by the incompetence of UK politicians.

With far more knowledge than my 18-yr-old self, I want that USE far more strongly, but only with public consent every step of the way

Merry If I had the wish / power to exclude anything from the voters, it would have been the Tory Party in 2015

I knew Cameron's referendum - purely for Tory party politics - was reckless & irresponsible
I just totally underestimated the clusterfuck that Bullingdon pig-poker would cause.

However, democracy means we can't exclude peaceful parties from participating, even if we think they will be a total bloody disaster

We can't exclude an option that ⅓ of voters currently support,
the Electoral Commission wouldn't allow it even if parliament tried

It really would be like excluding Labour or Tory from a GE

I want to remain in the EU. And I don’t want a no deal.
I will continue to fight to remain and support a PV until and unless I am staring a no deal in the face. Still looking at the a50 case,
.
BCF. Where do you get your data about the numbers wanting no deal and it being the 2nd best option. One poll I saw split PV and remain whereas in truth they are probably of similar minds..

However, democracy means we can't exclude peaceful parties from participating

I'm not excluding anybody from standing for election, but I don't think a referendum is comparable to an election. They shouldn't include an option that it is not possible to execute. They should be unicorn free. That is just abdicating responsibility.

merry No Deal is a perfectly possible option to execute.
It would be a disaster for most people , but many people believe that about Corbyn

The aim for the No Dealers has always been to convert the UK to a US low welfare, hire and fire, country

2bees That was the Sky Data poll I posted at the WE:

No Brexit - 54% (i.e. Remain)
No deal - 32%
May's deal - 14%

news.sky.com/story/majority-of-brits-now-against-brexit-and-back-second-eu-referendum-sky-data-poll-11555078

Legal opinion is that although the ECJ will hear the A50 revocation case next Tuesday, 27 Nov,
they will probably not deliver a verdict before mid-Dec at the earliest

We need them to hurry up ... if the verdict is that the UK can revoke unilaterally
It gives May teeth to her " No Brexit" threat - I think she doen't even need HoC approval in that case

Otherwise, maybe best to delay and keep the Brexiters anxious !

That poll was interesting, in that JC isn't really that far behind May !

Ref No-deal, R4 was saying that a no-deal requires a lot of legislation to be passed by January but didn't elaborate!

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
The DUP will abstain again on all Finance Bill votes tonight, sources confirm, plus probably other Govt legislation if tabled next week. They are now effectively on strike (and the confidence and supply agreement all but suspended) until the Irish backstop is resolved.

This is quite serious. The DUP going on strike reduces the Govt's majority to around 3 - in effect pretty much paralysing it from daring to pass any new laws until a solution to the Brexit impasse is found.

But again, Big Choc, I'm not suggesting anybody should be stopped from standing for parliament.

I am suggesting a referendum that would be closer to the Irish referendum where the elected government was clear about the legislation that they were prepared to pass. As we are still a representative democracy that doesn't rely on referendums I think that is sufficiently democratic.

Beth Rigby @BethRigby
@LiamFox was also in the meeting with Brexiteers/PM as she promised to explore their alternative plan on Irish backstop issue. One person familar with the talks said: "Some people think she's leading us up the garden path..We're waiting to see what she can do by Sunday"

Beth Rigby @BethRigby
Very interesting from Robert Buckland. @adamboultonSKY puts it to him the meaningful vote will not pass > Buckland: everyone still chasing their Brexit Nirvana but “it’s time to get real”. “It’s time for everyone - particularly the Labour Party - to step up to the plate”

Laura Kuenssberg@bbclaurak
Boris Johnson is going to speak at the DUP conference this weekend - wonder why...

I am suggesting a referendum that would be closer to the Irish referendum where the elected government was clear about the legislation that they were prepared to pass

Although that of course depends on having a parliament with a majority that can pass legislation, which we don't appear to have.

Pffft. 'Chaos with Ed Miliband'. Aaaaaaaaaargh!

The government need 320 for a majority (due to 7 SF and 1 speaker) but have 315 MPs, how is that a majority of 3? What am I missing? The DUP have 10 seats.

I think most Remainers at a pinch would back down, faced with a ruthless govt and No Deal

Most Remainers still haven't got a bloody clue about the details and "feel sorry" for May. I have no sympathy for her at all. The queue jumpers comment showed, again, who she really is. So, for me, Remain or something that looks exactly the same is the only option.

If there was a way to restrict the consequences of no deal to the people that voted leave, I’d be fine with that.
In my angrier moments, I just want a no deal crash out to watch the fuckers burn. But then I remember that it’s the poor, and the people with disabilities, single mothers, kids, and people with health problems that will pay the price. The Tory bastards (and UKIP) will swan away like it was nothing. 🤬

merry Excluding the #2 option that nearly ⅓ of voters support is NOT democratic
I oppose No Deal as the worst option, but I totally oppose excluding it
That is the slippery slope to dictatorship

It would be unfair in the same way as excluding a party from a GE that had policies we hated
Those ⅓ people who support it would be justified in taking to

However, as I said, the Electoral Commission would never allow the #2 option to be excluded

I filled in a YouGov poll today which was asking what I thought of the Labour Party, the Conservative Party and the various areas where I agreed/disagreed with them (for example, did they match my values, were they for a person like me, did they stand for opportunity for all, Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn and whether they were decent leaders, which of the various Tories would make a good PM etc.

I didn't miss and hit the wall

I would be furious if a PV excluded Remain - and indeed many Brexiters think it should,
that the 2016 ref decided Leave vs Remain, so any new ref should only be about the method of Leaving

Both sides should stop trying to exclude options they hate

pretty I hope each question included a "wanker" field in its opinion options

jas The legislation people keep talking about for No Deal is NOT legislation to make it happen:
No Deal remains the default if there is no WA

The legislation is to avoid unnecessary administrative chaos in the UK after No Deal,
part of what I've called No Deal Prepping e.g. updating databases, rules