Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?

[RedToothBrush]

Tick tick tick.

What do we think?

Yes? No?

Another week of wtf-ing at British politics.

Violetparis - yes there might have to be - but that depends on what Brexit FUKD rUK eventually agrees , so who knows?!

It might end up being like the Norway/Sweden border. And if the mythological technological solutions for NI get invented materialise, they can be used between Scotland and England too!

That wold be the benefit of rUK rejoining - taking away those border

The total irony for me is that NO OTHER country (apart from ROI who are playing a blinder) seem to care a hoot what happens.

The 27 remainers have just ditched the UK now. And why would anyone wonder about that really.

Reality really has taken over from satire, these are waxwork puppets surely?

Just catching up.

MerryMouse No Deal has the highest support after Remain

You can't exclude the #2 option just because you don't want it
That would make a PV totally undemocratic.

I think it's the government and parliament's duty to exclude options from any referendum that would be a total disaster.

I can’t give up on remain. I might be naive, my actions might be damaging (I hope not but I do sometimes worry about this), I might be wasting my time but - I cannot get ‘behind’ something that diminishes the UK. I can’t accept the result of a referendum built on lies and paid for by criminals.

Currently the best way of registering my dissent is via the People’s Vote campaign. I might not feel entirely comfortable with the idea but they are at least organised and commited to the cause.

I still do not believe that parliament would allow no deal to happen - even by accident. And the EU would not allow it either.

I know this opinion drives Red and BCF up the wall - but 🤷‍♀️

I personally never give up on remain, but as user rightly observed I am callous or more like vengeful.
Our own family of leavers told us many times before the referendum that they know they make our lives very hard, but it is worth it. They still think it is worth it, while they can hardly hang onto their own jobs thanks to Brexit. They still all think it is worth it. What can I say. Bring it on.

I just WILL NOT GOVE UP ON REMAIN, even if it risks no deal.

That's a cracker of a Freudian slip, mother

I can't give gove up on Remain either.

I understand the argument for the WA, but only in the context of 'this or No Deal'. As something to 'get behind'...well, I just can't.

And I know that sounds like 'feelz' rather than sensible pragmatism but, at the end of the day I don't want to leave the EU! That's it. That's my red line. I don't want to leave. There is no 'compromise' that will make me happy. It will be fucking awful, depressing, diminishing and humiliating, and I don't want to do it.

I thought Spain had said they have no issue with an independent Scotland, mrsr8?

Spain have said that they won't veto and independent Scotland - provided it is done "properly" in accordance with our constitutional principles (ie approved by Westminster).

{The total irony for me is that NO OTHER country (apart from ROI who are playing a blinder) seem to care a hoot what happens.}
I don't think that is really true. Much of Europe that deals with 'technical' people has considerable respect for the British and tend to work well.
A friends father, who knows more about the inner workings of the EU than anyone here said he is alternately incredulous and deeply saddened that it is coming to this. When I met him last year his only question to me was 'what the heck are the UK thinking'? We moved swiftly on to more important matters like food. I forget what he said about his meetings with Cameron, but I am sure it wasn't complimentary!

@prettybird

you're kinda making my point. Any outcome of independence needs to be clear, concise, and easily understood. Which certainly was not the debate over currency I witnessed.

With the caveat that not having a vote, what I thought was of no consequence, I will say that the insistence that by keeping the pound Scotland was somehow "independent" seemed a tad odd. Unless Scotland also had a say in the monetary policy of the rUK which was made plain at the time was a non-starter.

That's my view anyway. Let's see what the future brings. But if Brexit has shown us anything, it's that votes for change without a plan are not really in a countries best interests.

Not sure if the Basques and Catalunyan's want to leave the EU but rid themselves of the Madrid government.

Spain will veto any independent Scottish membership.

I suspect given the current circumstances (so different to 2014) Spain would not only not veto a Scottish bid for EU membership, but roll out the red carpet and be their sponsors. Especially if it causes irritation in Westminster.

Spain is saying it will veto the WA if it doesn't get a bit of an amendment to it concerning the status of Gibraltar. The wording of the WA suggested the dispute over it was over, Spain wants 'further discussions at a later date' to remain in the WA.

Spain is saying it will veto the WA if it doesn't get a bit of an amendment to it concerning the status of Gibraltar.

Which has little to do with Scottish independence ...

Never gonna Gove you up, never gonna Raab you down.

DGR.
True but it is an interesting development.

In fact, topically, this is what Spain is now saying, explicitly saying it would welcome an independent Scotland (although it's also a dig at the disunity of the UK) as long as it is done "legally": https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-news-spain-northern-ireland-border-scotland-nationalism-catalonia-josep-borrell-a8642476.html

DGR - according to ds, Keith Brown (SNP Deputy Leader) said at a meeting last night at Aberdeen Uni that the SNP would announce their latest Indy currency choice at their spring conference.

Personally, I had no issue with sharing the £ - at least initially. After all, people didn't say that Ireland wasn't "independent" because the punt shadowed precisely the £ for over 50(?) years.

Also there are many countries that use the US $ (some deliberately, like Panama, others less positively because their own currency has collapsed, eg Zimbabwe) that are nevertheless independent. As I say, if people had bothered to listen to Mark Carney (for whom I have a lot of respect), they'd have heard him saying that it was possible. Even now, it is arguable that the UK Government has "ceded sovereignty" to the BoE, when it made the BoE independent of government . So it's ok for the UK Government but not for Scotland

It is similar to the Eurozone arguments: the Eurozone countries had to cede an element of sovereignty to the Central bank when they joined the Eurozone but no one, except the diehard Eurosceptics (), claims that they're not independent countries

MrsR8 - the difference is that in Spain, they have created a constitution which explicitly doesn't allow parts of the country to secede. The Catalonian Referendum was done "illegally" (not commenting on the rights and wrongs of that). Ditto with the Basque region.

There have been frequent reports from Spain over the last couple of years saying that they wouldn't stand in the way of a legally agreed independent Scotland joining the EU from senior members of its government - not always reported on the BBC. It's why Nicola needs the Section 30 notice from Westminster, rather than just holding a referendum off her own bat (whatever the SNP members might want her to do ).