Westministenders: The One Where We Finally Get A Leadership Challenge?

[RedToothBrush]

Tick tick tick.

What do we think?

Yes? No?

Another week of wtf-ing at British politics.

BigChoc - changing minds is what my group has been trying to do in our street campaigning since June 2016. It's sometimes successful, sometimes not ... but often more importantly we've re-galvanised despondent remainers. And if you speak to youngsters, there's a massive swathe of them desperate to have their say and keep their EU citizenship. We could win a PV ... possibly with 60% ... so let's keep pushing for it - it's worth a try.

Concentrate on changing minds so we could actually win it !

I think the minds that would be changed by reason, facts, logic, and effort to learn have been changed by now. We're into the realm of opinion as religion, with 29th March for some being a day of rapture.

A PV and a government that was not quite so obsessed with their own survival agenda would be great as it does show that many in the UK are not happy with the direction that we are heading.
The rest of Europe (and many further afield ) are watching with incredulity the antics of the government and will see the efforts by you who are promoting a PV. It is difficult to see what they can do about it even though many will sympathise with the PV position.

Looking at the Guardian there is a picture of a Pro EU lady of advanced years (like me) wearing a 'Bollocks to Brexit' label.
I was musing of the idea of seeing Miss Marple (of Agatha Christie) going around St Marymeade wearing a 'Bollocks to Brexit' badge.
English eccentricity has failed.

LeClerc - that's another reason to push for a PV. Even if we don't get it, the fact that there is public and growing support for it, might force the government to finally acknowledge remainers' concerns and, as you say, shows the rest of the world that we are not all happy to Brexit. It also prepares the ground for future campaigning if the worst happens and we leave with a the WA (Hard Brexit) in March.

And we're now actually going to get some impact reports - more fodder for our arguments. It's not the time to give up ... we might have to reassess, but while we still have a chance, we have to push for a PV.

Moggadon man is at it again ...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46269757

Jacob Rees-Mogg has warned fellow Tory MPs that if they don't ditch Theresa May now she will lead them into the next election, scheduled for 2022.

Few Tories thought this was a "good idea", the Brexiteer MP suggested.

(contd)

Apparently it was all part of his plan to not get 48 letters, I read somewhere.

Yes, if we leave, we'll need a good baseline Rejoin support to build up quickly

The EU promised that a Rejoin during transition would be fast-tracked
but I'm pretty sure they'd like the reassurance of the 65% we had in 1975

Here's an interesting one to watch. Government seems to have found £20.5 billion to spend in the NHS, and has decided it's to go into "digital services" (because, let's face it, that's the easiest way to get money into your mates pockets).

Meanwhile, the luddite public have some weird ideas the money should be spent on cancer care, mental health, and proper staff recruitment and training.

www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/20/joe_public_wants_nhs_to_spend_its_cash_on_cancer_mental_health_not_digital_services/

I know exactly where that money will end up. And it won't be where the public want.

Fuck me this thread is depressing. People claiming they're remainers saying we must leave so that we have dire consequences and learn our lesson. Jesus wept. More callous than the hard leave Tories!

Given the concern that people on here have that the result of a PV would be too close and result in continuing divisions despite the clusterfuck unfolding in front of us and the dire consequences of both No deal and a "bad deal" (which the WA may or may not be ) - you can see why Nicola Sturgeon is resisting pressure from within her own party to "name a date" for a IndyRef2.

She has consistently said that she doesn't want to go for another Indyref until she is confident of at least 60% support. While she might go for it if the polls are showing a bit less than that, allowing time for support to grow during the campaign, she is taking nothing for granted and wants to be confident that the momentum is there.

She knows that if Independence doesn't win the next vote, that really is it for c30 years - and she wants to win it well as she doesn't want a country divided down the middle.

The EU promised that a Rejoin during transition would be fast-tracked but I'm pretty sure they'd like the reassurance of the 65% we had in 1975

There's probably a "Black Mirror" in that where the Remainers make sure it's 65% by eliminating 10% of Brexiteers. With appalling bad taste, it might even be called The Hunger Games.

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn^
"The DUP will abstain again on all Finance Bill votes tonight, sources confirm, plus probably other Govt legislation if tabled next week.
They are now effectively on strike (and the confidence and supply agreement all but suspended) until the Irish backstop is resolved.
...
This is quite serious. The DUP going on strike reduces the Govt's majority to around 3 - in effect pretty much paralysing it from daring to pass any new laws until a solution to the Brexit impasse is found."

Well, it would be serious if Corbyn could organise the proverbial in a brewery 🤦🏻‍♀️

May is really lucky in having such incompetent opponents:
. Mogg & the ERG
. Corbyn & the PLP

But under the FTPA, a defeat isn't an automatic no confidence ?????

TheGirl I want to avoid No Deal, because I'm NOT that ruthless

I'd settle for the WA if time runs out and there is no possibility of Remain
That's not to teach anyone a lesson, but just because No Deal would be a disaster for the country and especially the most vulnerable

I think most Remainers at a pinch would back down, faced with a ruthless govt and No Deal

DG Under the FPTA, there actually has to be a specific No Confidence vote
after which the govt and Opposition both have 14 day to form a govt

They need at least Confidence & Supply, with no more porkies to HMQ

BigChoc - I get where you're coming from, but now is not the time to give up. Now is the time to push for a PV. As mentioned earlier on the thread - we cannot be disunited. That's what 'they' want.

Yes, NS has to be careful

Her justification for Indyref2 is that some only voted NO because they were told that was the best way to stay within the EU
Boy, were they conned !

She obviously needs to wait first to see that we actually Brexit - and that might even be delayed
then, yes 60% is wise in this climate of great voter volatility and psy ops by billionaire oligarchs

I'd be very sad if Scotland goes, but if it happens then I hope it will be amicable

After the cries of "punishment" by Brexiters, I wonder if rUK negotiators would be as civilised as Barnier - they certainly won't be as competent or knowledgeable

user I'm not giving up trying to persuade people to Remain,
but probably early in the New Year, I will switch 100% to avoiding No Deal, even if that means the WA

The marches for PV are ver< useful as Remain pressure on the govt and Labour,
even if I don't think PV is possible / useful until Remain has a lot more support.

I think the other blow to the Indyref was the confusion about what currency to use. Any fresh attempt needs to have a crystal clear plan. which is easily explained.

BigChoc - fair enough. Plenty of things can change between now and the New Year. Still worth pushing for PV this side of Christmas.

If Scotland won independence and joined the EU would there have to be a hard border between it and England ?

{Fuck me this thread is depressing. People claiming they're remainers saying we must leave so that we have dire consequences and learn our lesson. Jesus wept. More callous than the hard leave Tories!}

On the basis this was aimed at me I can assure you that I have no wish for 'dire consequences. Thus far the various polls have not shown a massive swing to 'Remain' which it would need to be to prevent 'leavers' crying foul. There are fewer cries of 'we won, get over it' but we are still a very long way from being firmly 'in or out'.
Leavers do not accept that many were taken in by lies.
There is of course the original problem that Leavers want to leave the EU but at the same time want all the benefits to remain the same, or even more ludicrous want BETTER deals than other EU members get.

Indeed DGR - but if any of the MSM had bothered to read the White Paper "Scotland's Future", they would have seen that there were 4 options (might even have been 5 - can't quite remember now) regarding currency and that retaining the £ was deemed to be the least damaging to both countries - but that any of the other options were also possible.

And Scotland does already part own the £ - as the Bank of England is actually misnamed as it is the Bank of the UK and the Scottish banks already deposit virtual million pound notes (I believe that there used to be real ones ) into the BoE in return for being allowed to print their own money.

And if anyone had bothered to listen to Mark Carney's press conference (and its Q&As), as dh and I did, they'd have heard him say that it would be possible, although it would, like most things in today's global economy (including Canada's relationship with the USA) involve an element of ceding of sovereignty. He said it in a very dry way, describing himself as a technocrat and that if he was asked to, he could do it.

The thing that the Scottish Government and Yes Campaign underestimated was just how obstructive and stroppy Westminster would be (unlike Barnier ). Having seen how childish they are in the Brexit negotiations, they won't be that naive again

Violetparis
I think so, yes although if the unicorn powered version of a border between NI and Ireland flies it need not be too physical.